WotC Dungeons & Dragons Fans Seek Removal of Oriental Adventures From Online Marketplace

[Ralif Redhammer]

Parts of it feel mildly off to my sensibilities, but it's not awful. The following sentence stands out: "...the Samurai is present to provide a touch of exotic (culture clashes are always interesting in a campaign);"

That being said, there are parts of the kit that could easily become very problematic in play. See also the Savage kit.

If anyone has the Complete Fighter's Handbook - please look up the Samurai Fighter Kit.
Does anyone have an objection to how that was written?

 

[MoonSong]

Parts of it feel mildly off to my sensibilities, but it's not awful. The following sentence stands out: "...the Samurai is present to provide a touch of exotic (culture clashes are always interesting in a campaign);"

That being said, there are parts of the kit that could easily become very problematic in play. See also the Savage kit.

Here is a link to a grey but still legal source. Samurai (Comp. Fighter's Handbook)

You need to read this first though 2e Rules!

 

[Mercurius]

Sorry, people of a group in power do not get to tell people of marginalized groups how they can feel about certain things. That's not exclusionary. It's exclusionary of their opinions to constantly have to make space for those other feelings. Whether this is about race, sex, orientation, trans, whatever, those groups already know what the dominant group's opinions are.

This has all kinds of problems.

1. What about people of marginalized groups who don't take offense? Or who think, "meh, no big deal - I'll save my offense for real world stuff"?

2. Here's the big one: Groups are comprised of individuals, who have different perspectives on things. When you say things like, "these groups already know what the dominant group's opinions are" you are implying that everyone of a given group thinks alike. This is not only absurd, it is harmful.

 

[Stormonu]

How could you not love someone deciding what is good for you
/rolleyes

I'm sort of used to it to the point I ignore it anymore. I mean, Hollywood's been around how long?

 

[ZeshinX]

Unless you're part of the race or ethnic group being discussed, your opinion really doesn't matter.

If you can learn to devalue one person's opinion/thoughts/feelings, you can devalue anyone's, context be damned.

This binary approach is not only counter productive, it is outright destructive. It is the first step towards stunting one's ability to learn. It removes the ability to empathize and to sympathize. It encourages the exact thing this entire debate relates to; the rendering of all those different as "the Other".

It only escalates the "Us vs Them" nonsense until it ultimately backfires and metaphorically kicks everyone in the face.

 

[Imaculata]

Complete Warrior for 3rd edition has the Samurai class, and the Kensai and Ronin prestige classes.

The samurai follows a strict code of honor, and uses Kiai Smite. He seems to be a powerful melee class focused on intimidation. Not offensive in my view, but more based on samurai from film than from history. He basically stares down his opponents.

The Kensai also seems relative inoffensive to me, but there is the trope of using Ki, along with an Oath of Service as a requirement to play one, and he gets a signature weapon.

The Ronin has a Banzai charge... okay... a Kiai Smite, and must have fled or been exiled. Infamy is an important aspect of the class.

You tell me if any of that sounds offensive.

 

[Sadras]

That being said, there are parts of the kit that could easily become very problematic in play. See also the Savage kit.

I can see that it is written from the lens of a Western eye hence the word exotic and mention of clash of cultures.

The Savage Kit mentions nothing about intelligence, just primitive in technology or is a tribesman.
They provide several Savage tropes - Tarzan, Dirty Primitive Warrior, Breathtakingly Beautiful Native Princess, Noble Savage.
Can be crude or civil, could be the voice of the uncorrupted, nasty or admirable.
What am I not seeing? Bone weapons? It is taking man to a point before tech? Human bent?

This is the Savage from a European perspective and I imagine from an Asian perspective.
Are we saying the Kit would be deemed negative from the perspective of native Americans (all) and Middle/Southern Africa?

 

[Mercurius]

I think the book with the Savage Kit should be pulled and reprinted with the following name:

Non-Urban Based Person Derived from Colonialist Narratives on Prehistorical Peoples and Indigenous Peoples But Not Really That, Just Think Conan, Tarzan, or Red Sonja But Without the Eurocentrism Kit.

 

[Chaosmancer]

It also doesn't make it not ok.
If the stereotypes are fun and done well, they will stand and appeal on their own and the book will sell. It did.
If I want to run something which may be more authentic - I will gladly do the research.

How can it be done well if we never stop and ask if it is being done poorly?

This is the drain we keep circling around. A lot of people are saying "hey, we should look into these, make sure we are doing them in a respectful manner" and we are getting told that any change for anything is bowing to a minority who wants to destroy the game.

Some steroetypes are fine, others aren't. But without asking the questions and looking into it, we'll never be able to tell. And defending a set of options just because we did it before, so it must be fine to do it again, seems lazy.

5e DMG The Honor ability is also useful in any campaign that revolves around orders of Knights.
Does this not satisfy you?

"is also useful" implies it is a secondary use of the system. Combined with the asian-themed picture next to the system, it indicates that the primary use of the honor system is for role-playing in Fantasy Asia.

So, no, I'm not going to say it is fine just because we tossed a bone out and said "oh, it is good here too" Especially since the Fantasy Asia game applies the honor system to the entire populace, while it doesn't apply to the entire Fantasy Europe populace, only if we focus on knights do we need this.

The system is presented for use with every aspect of Fantasy Asia... oh and knights to I guess. That is the problem. Strict Honor codes was not a thing for the entirety of the Far East. It was specific, just like it was specific in Europe.

I have no issue with future material.

Then why argue against us being more mindful going forward?

Stereotypes aren't bad. That's something that you say but not everyone agree. Stereotypes work for a reason. They are ingrained in popular culture. Stereotypes might be boring, but are not automatically offensive. If they are not offensive, what's the problem?

Your comment, anyway, confirms that you are bashing a product that you didn't even read.

And if they are offensive, then it is a problem.

And yeah, I haven't taken the time to pull up a fifty year old book I have zero interest in to go over it with a fine-tooth comb looking for racial stereotypes. Not my idea of a fun time, I've got enough on my plate.

But, I am aware because my friend has developed and sold an Japanese themed board game and had me run his RPG rules at multiple conventions, that there are a lot of stereotypical representations that are flat wrong and harmful. I also follow a lot of cultural channels exploring connections between modern media and various cultures. So, it isn't a stretch for me to imagine a product based of 70's martial arts movies (which were full of these types of stereotypes) might have some icky stuff in it.

So?

Aren't they appropriation ad destruction of another culture's heritage? Are those points vaid only when they support your opinion but not mine?

Should I force you to eat things as they should be done? Or can we admit that by putting together something that were not intended to be together can sometimes create something new?

I'm sorry, did I ever say anything about fortune cookies? I am aware they have nothing to do with Chinese cuisine, and I feel like the fact the get presented as such instead of an American invention is pretty gross. I've got no problem eating them, or with people selling them, but I do have a problem with people getting a false view of the culture and food because of them.

But your point about "putting things together" is missing something. And that is that the other side gets a say in it. If Papa John's or Dominoes wants to start calling their food "Authentic Italian Pizza" don't you think that is a problem? Even if Italy is the origin of Pizza, what those fast food restaurants do is not "authentic Italian pizza" even if it tastes good.

Is it pizza? Yes. Is that a problem? No. Should we present it as Italian Pizza? Definetly not.

This has all kinds of problems.

1. What about people of marginalized groups who don't take offense? Or who think, "meh, no big deal - I'll save my offense for real world stuff"

Why the ever-loving bleep do people keep acting like media published in the real world isn't real.

Movies are real. Books are real. This rule book is real. They have real consequences in the real world.

Sure, a book that is published that glorifies genocide isn't as bad as say, an actual genocide, but I am sick and tired of reading on all these websites that this stuff doesn't matter because it is fictional. That isn't an excuse, that isn't a defense, and claiming that there are worse things that could be happening doesn't mean that what is happening is okay.

To use a horrid analogy, the store clerk purposefully giving you the wrong change so they can pocket a dollar isn't okay just because some people break into houses and murder entire families to steal their valuables. Both things are bad, one of them is worse than the other, but that doesn't invalidate the first as being a bad, naughty word thing to do.

 

[BookBarbarian]

If anyone has the Complete Fighter's Handbook - please look up the Samurai Fighter Kit.
Does anyone have an objection to how that was written?

EDIT: Surely that is a stereotype, I'm just not sure it is bad.

I would say it's more of a trope than a stereotype. IE "if you want to play a film-samurai here is a kit".

However, if it was bundled with a bunch of other martial arts/pseudo East Asian tropes I could see it verging into stereotype territory because then it could be more easily interpreted as "if you want to play an East Asian character here are you options". I think part of the problem could be in setting them apart like this. Or as was mentioned specifically labeling as "Exotic". This could also encourage DMs to say "Oh you want to play an east Asian Knight? No No here's the Samurai"

I think 5e (and maybe other editions but I'm most familiar with 5e) has made good strides, like having more inclusive artwork in the PHB like the one for the Soldier Background that portray that the 'default' options are meant to include everyone.