WotC Dungeons & Dragons Fans Seek Removal of Oriental Adventures From Online Marketplace

[Chaosmancer]

Funny thing here. There's a dispute about who invented fortune cookies - there being, apparently, three main contenders for inventor. All of them were working in the United States - but all three of them were also Asian immigrants to the US (2 Japanese, 1 Chinese, I believe). So... are they Asian cuisine or not? Who gets to decide that - people living in China/Japan, the immigrants to the US from those countries who invented them and who nevertheless probably still retain ties to their birth cultures, nobody, somebody?

What's the relevance here? It's a bit tangential to the full topic, but it gets to the question of who do we listen to/who is authoritative in the declaration of what's authentic and what's not when it comes to cuisine? Is deep dish pizza Italian if the cook who invented it is Italian-American? Is the culture too far separated for them to make that distinction? If so, who decides that? And by extension and bringing it back around to the topic, is it authoritative for Asian-American podcasters to decide if Oriental Adventures is offensive to... whom? Themselves? A broader community? And if so, how broad a community?

This is not an uncomplicated set of questions.

It is certainly complicated, and can get really murky and messy.

But, I think it is fair for Chinese people to point out that the cookie was invented in America, potentially by a Japanese immigrant (2/3's likelihood from your info) and say "that isn't chinese food"

Especially since a lot of places that are billed as "chinese food" sell a variety of dishes from a variety of asian cultures. For example, Pho is a Vietnamese dish, and I can understand a Vietnamese or Vietnamese-American's frustration seeing it billed as Chinese Food.

 

[MGibster]

I'm not saying people can't learn, that's a weird direction to take it. I'm saying white people don't get to tell Asian people what they're allowed to be offended by. That's a discussion for Asian people to have.

Who here is arguing that any of us gets to tell someone what they can or cannot be offended by?

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

It is certainly complicated, and can get really murky and messy.

But, I think it is fair for Chinese people to point out that the cookie was invented in America, potentially by a Japanese immigrant (2/3's likelihood from your info) and say "that isn't chinese food"

Especially since a lot of places that are billed as "chinese food" sell a variety of dishes from a variety of asian cultures. For example, Pho is a Vietnamese dish, and I can understand a Vietnamese or Vietnamese-American's frustration seeing it billed as Chinese Food.

At a certain point, this is madness. Almost no Chinese food that Americans eat on a regular basis is "Chinese" in the same way that the Mexican food that we eat isn't "Mexican." They are foods that have been adapted to our palates by immigrants over the years (it is more accurate to say that our Chinese food is really it's own thing, and our Mexican food is more accurately called "Tex-Mex" or some other variant).

You can get "authentic" food, but that's not par for the course. And, for example, if a black chef from New Orleans is making a Bulgogi and Hot Chicken Burrito in a Los Angeles food truck ... well, what is that? Mexican? Korean? Nashville? Something else?

How is it that we've acknowledged the wondrous fusion of cultures in so many areas, yet we can't see that these arbitrary barriers can also prevent it? Eh, it's complicated, I know.

 

[ZeshinX]

I'm not saying people can't learn, that's a weird direction to take it. I'm saying white people don't get to tell Asian people what they're allowed to be offended by. That's a discussion for Asian people to have.

I'm not going to make a bunch of analogies to prove my point. This is what minority groups have been asking for.

I've certainly heard the word "Orientals" used in a derogatory way. It speaks to the "all you people look alike" narrative, so it's understandable why some people might not like the word.

Certainly agree with that. Telling others how they should feel is ridiculous and futile. They feel how they feel. If any particular individual or community of individuals feel, generally, a certain way, including offended...it's not even a question of they have that right...they just feel whatever they feel, right/wrong/in a box by the door...they just do.

Now is being offended something to be protected from? No. No more than protection is needed from anger, sadness, happiness, love, etc.

This is when nuance needs to enter the discussion. There is certain language that needs to go, no question. Language that perpetuates or draws upon any sort of "-ism" (racism, sexism, etc)...should be addressed and changed, not because it is offensive to a particular community, but it is destructive to humanity as a whole. All are damaged by it in matters of degree. Absolutely, those degrees affect some communities more than others, one needs only look at history to see that.

We can only impact the present and hope whatever we do now can be a net positive for the future. Sweeping history under the rug, or hiding it away in some dark vault, or removing old books from sale only distracts from what we CAN do to improve the present and future. The past is immutable. Pretending it didn't exist or turning our gaze from it will only doom us into repeating it.

A compromise can exist. It will not please all or perhaps any, but such is the nature of compromise. A summary of the context of the book (Oriental Adventures) can be put on the page where one would purchase it. WotC could even opt to donate any proceeds of sales of said book to various charity groups and/or organizations working towards a better present and future. The book itself should remain and otherwise not be altered.

Compromise would be more ideal than removal. Well, such is my opinion, for what it's worth.

 

[Dire Bare]

We've had a few Asian American gamers post on this thread, and some Asian gamers too. That's the most interesting and relevant part of the discussion.

But still, just a handful. Some Asian American gamers and Asian gamers aren't overly offended by how "Oriental Adventures" (1E) portrays Asian culture, or by the word "oriental" . . . . I wish we had some intensive survey data giving us more than individual anecdotes but a feel for how the Asian/Asian-American gamer community feels about this issue more broadly.

A few things to keep in mind . . . both the terms "Asian" and "Asian American" are a bit problematic themselves as they lump a very broad and diverse group of people together under one label. How Japanese gamers feel about "Oriental Adventures" might be different than how Chinese gamers feel about it. I know we all realize this, but I still think it's an important reminder.

Another important distinction is between Asian gamers and Asian American gamers . . . they come from different lived experiences. Back during the controversy over casting Scarlett Johansen as the Major in the live-action "Ghost in the Shell" movie, it seemed that there were a lot of folks over in Japan who didn't really have a problem with it, but a lot of Japanese Americans did. The Japanese didn't experience the same history of discrimination as their Japanese American cousins have in the West.

Another distinction . . . Asian gamers versus Asian people at large. In the past, there have been Asian American criticism of "Oriental Adventures" from folks who are not overly familiar with the game. I don't think you have to be an expert on D&D to have a valid opinion on the matter, but I am more interested in the opinions of Asian American gamers than those from outside the hobby. Although, I'm not confident in that preference.

There's been talk about white outrage or white people getting outraged on behalf of other groups, Asians in this context. That's a thing, for sure, but easily conflated with white folks being concerned about continued discrimination against minorities from the white community. I agree that (as a white person) I don't get to tell anyone from another ethnicity how they should feel about a topic . . . but I reject that I don't get a voice in discussions about harmful stereotypes and discrimination. And a reminder that what prompted this discussion is a group of Asian American gamers asking WotC to remove OA from the marketplace . . . this is not a case of white folks getting offended on behalf of Asian Americans.

Ultimately, what the "right" thing to do about "Oriental Adventures" (1E) should be based on it's impact on the Asian American community, and to a secondary degree, the Asian community. If significant numbers of Asian Americans feel that "Oriental Adventures" (and related titles) are harmful, insulting, or problematic . . . than WotC would be wise to deal with the issue, either with removing the products or packaging them with a disclaimer (my preference).

We KNOW that some Asians and Asian American gamers do not have a huge problem with "Oriental Adventures". We also KNOW that some Asian American gamers DO have a problem with "Oriental Adventures". I asked earlier, "How many Asian Americans need to be offended before we view something as problematic?" The answer is more than a handful, but less than all. Which is vague and who gets to make that call?

 

[Bagpuss]

You tell me if any of that sounds offensive.

Well the Asians Read podcast were offended by

Samurai must have minimum scores of 13 in Strength, Wisdom, and Constitution, and of 14 in Intelligence. They may be of lawful alignment only (but still may be good, evil, or neutral).

The fact they have a minimum for Wisdom was offensive to them, because not all Samurai were necessarily wise. So it might give you an idea as to how much else they are likely to find offensive.

 

[Lanefan]

I'm unclear about my false assumption here. Mystara has mostly faded to a fringe setting in regards to D&D. The fact that you say that Mystara is big in your cultural context of Italy doesn't really change that. It's big in Italy doesn't really say much about the wider hobby. It only speaks to Italy.

At what point does "the wider hobby" emerge, though?

To switch it up: if Mystara was a big deal in the US but merely a fringe setting in Italy would you still claim it only had fringe status "in regards to D&D"? If no, that's a very US-centric viewpoint; and the hobby is much bigger than just the US.

That Mystara's a big deal anywhere is worth noting - and, in this case, celebrating! EDIT to add: celebrating not due to any potentially-offensive themes etc. but due to it being what's left of Arneson's setting, and due to my being a Mystara fan.

 

[Mercurius]

We've had a few Asian American gamers post on this thread, and some Asian gamers too. That's the most interesting and relevant part of the discussion.

But still, just a handful. Some Asian American gamers and Asian gamers aren't overly offended by how "Oriental Adventures" (1E) portrays Asian culture, or by the word "oriental" . . . . I wish we had some intensive survey data giving us more than individual anecdotes but a feel for how the Asian/Asian-American gamer community feels about this issue more broadly.

A few things to keep in mind . . . both the terms "Asian" and "Asian American" are a bit problematic themselves as they lump a very broad and diverse group of people together under one label. How Japanese gamers feel about "Oriental Adventures" might be different than how Chinese gamers feel about it. I know we all realize this, but I still think it's an important reminder.

Another important distinction is between Asian gamers and Asian American gamers . . . they come from different lived experiences. Back during the controversy over casting Scarlett Johansen as the Major in the live-action "Ghost in the Shell" movie, it seemed that there were a lot of folks over in Japan who didn't really have a problem with it, but a lot of Japanese Americans did. The Japanese didn't experience the same history of discrimination as their Japanese American cousins have in the West.

Another distinction . . . Asian gamers versus Asian people at large. In the past, there have been Asian American criticism of "Oriental Adventures" from folks who are not overly familiar with the game. I don't think you have to be an expert on D&D to have a valid opinion on the matter, but I am more interested in the opinions of Asian American gamers than those from outside the hobby. Although, I'm not confident in that preference.

There's been talk about white outrage or white people getting outraged on behalf of other groups, Asians in this context. That's a thing, for sure, but easily conflated with white folks being concerned about continued discrimination against minorities from the white community. I agree that (as a white person) I don't get to tell anyone from another ethnicity how they should feel about a topic . . . but I reject that I don't get a voice in discussions about harmful stereotypes and discrimination. And a reminder that what prompted this discussion is a group of Asian American gamers asking WotC to remove OA from the marketplace . . . this is not a case of white folks getting offended on behalf of Asian Americans.

Ultimately, what the "right" thing to do about "Oriental Adventures" (1E) should be based on it's impact on the Asian American community, and to a secondary degree, the Asian community. If significant numbers of Asian Americans feel that "Oriental Adventures" (and related titles) are harmful, insulting, or problematic . . . than WotC would be wise to deal with the issue, either with removing the products or packaging them with a disclaimer (my preference).

We KNOW that some Asians and Asian American gamers do not have a huge problem with "Oriental Adventures". We also KNOW that some Asian American gamers DO have a problem with "Oriental Adventures". I asked earlier, "How many Asian Americans need to be offended before we view something as problematic?" The answer is more than a handful, but less than all. Which is vague and who gets to make that call?

Good post. To answer the last question: WotC obviously. We can share our perspectives with each other, and even petition WotC, but ultimately they get to decide. We can hope that whatever their decision is will include ample research and a diversity of perspectives, but whether or not it will is unknown.

 

[Mercurius]

Check the thread you are in, this is about Oriental Adventures and their presentation.

So, I think if someone wrote a story about say... blue-skinned native people needing to be rescued by a white guy, and other people responded "that is problematic, why did they need him to save them" I don't think replying "it is just a what if story, no offense meant" is fully sufficient.

It really depends on the story and how it is handled. But I agree about the “white savior” trope and it’s over-use. Thankfully that is diminishing.

 

[Bagpuss]

"Ghost in the Shell" movie, it seemed that there were a lot of folks over in Japan who didn't really have a problem with it, but a lot of Japanese Americans did. The Japanese didn't experience the same history of discrimination as their Japanese American cousins have in the West.

I think it was more they expected a Hollywood made film to have a Hollywood lead actress, just like Bollywood films have Bollywood actors, French films have french lead actors, etc.

Now admittedly the are probably Japanese American actresses that could have played the role, but none of them have the box office draw of Scarlett Johansson. But is that because they don't get a chance at major roles, and you have a chicken and egg situation. Chances are with the budget the film had they would need a big name to secure a return, so either the film would get a smaller budget (and less people end up going to see it, lower production values, etc) or it just wouldn't get made because without the star power draw it can't secure funding (like the trans movie Scarlett Johansson was forced to pull out of), so the story just doesn't get told.

It's a very damned if you do damned if you don't situation.