D&D General (Anecdotal) conversations with Asian gamers on some problems they currently face in the D&D world of RPG gaming

[Snarf Zagyg]

Books go out of print all the bloody time, it happens. Are you OWED a certain author's work? Are we OWED access to this product by a large corporation?

We can lament that a corporation won't sell us the product we want, but are we in any sort of morally superior position just because the corporation won't sell it to us? Are we OWED game mechanics? You can argue that the game, or the landscape of literature, is poorer without that particular works, but is it really our place to demand it?

This is so completely 100% wrong.

People are not DEMANDING that a product continue to be sold.

You get that, right? I don't care if it is sold, or if it is sold for 1 penny, of it WoTC agrees not to enforce the copyright and it is freely available.

What I do care is people that are DEMANDING that it is not available at all. People that believe that they are OWED a lack of offense at all times from history.

And this isn't about selfish desire; it's about principles. What, are you saying that the people that argued for the rights of the marchers in Skokie were just a bunch of unprincipled racists?*

*If you aren't familiar with this, google it. Please.

 

[Immeril]

Books go out of print all the bloody time, it happens. Are you OWED a certain author's work? Are we OWED access to this product by a large corporation?

We can lament that a corporation won't sell us the product we want, but are we in any sort of morally superior position just because the corporation won't sell it to us? Are we OWED game mechanics? You can argue that the game, or the landscape of literature, is poorer without that particular works, but is it really our place to demand it?

For exemple, I'm a Transformers collector. Certain late wave toys NEVER make it to Canadian shelf (mostly due to retailers). Certain toys never make it out of Japan. Certain toys even get outright cancelled, and some never happen (where's my Titans Return Minerva Takara?). I'm sad about it, and I'll complain, but I know it's just my selfish desire.

And, maybe that's just me, I'd rather not argue from a place of selfish desire when it comes to issues of racisms.

As Voadam stated: there's a difference between pulling a product because it actually costs the publisher money to keep it in print, or pulling it because someone somewhere takes offence to it.

 

[Undrave]

This is so completely 100% wrong.

People are not DEMANDING that a product continue to be sold.

You get that, right? I don't care if it is sold, or if it is sold for 1 penny, of it WoTC agrees not to enforce the copyright and it is freely available.

What I do care is people that are DEMANDING that it is not available at all. People that believe that they are OWED a lack of offense at all times from history.

And this isn't about selfish desire; it's about principles. What, are you saying that the people that argued for the rights of the marchers in Skokie were just a bunch of unprincipled racists?*

*If you aren't familiar with this, google it. Please.

I'm still not sure what are the principles at play on the side arguing against taking down OA. I know why the people who are asking OA to be taken down are taking their stance, but I'd like to know the non-selfish reason why OA should absolutely be kept up, especially if the owners of the work decide to pull it down of their own accord.

As for Skokie... Personally I don't believe in tolerating intolerance. Displaying Nazi symbolism is not free speech, it's an assault, a psychological attack, a threat. If I see a Nazi, I will punch them... but this is not really the place for this discussion.

 

[Remathilis]

When you're sharing the table with a known White supremacist, that may be an indication that you might need to rethink your position.

And Hilter was a vegetarian. What's your point?

 

[Immeril]

but I'd like to know the non-selfish reason why OA should absolutely be kept up, especially if the owners of the work decide to pull it down of their own accord.

After being pestered into removing it, through Twitter? Hardly 'on their own accord'.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

I'm still not sure what are the principles at play on the side arguing against taking down OA. I know why the people who are asking OA to be taken down are taking their stance, but I'd like to know the non-selfish reason why OA should absolutely be kept up, especially if the owners of the work decide to pull it down of their own accord.

As for Skokie... Personally I don't believe in tolerating intolerance. Displaying Nazi symbolism is not free speech, it's an assault, a psychological attack, a threat. If I see a Nazi, I will punch them... but this is not really the place for this discussion.

The problem that so often see if the unthinking invocation of Popper's Paradox. Which, in being used to suppress speech (??!!?) and rational discussion is, in fact, not at all what was being discussed.

But the non-selfish reason, again, is because I don't want ANY BOOKS taken down. Do you get that? Do you grok that?

And that means that I support the rights of books that I don't like, books as terrible as .... oh, 3e .... to continue to be up there. That is the whole point. You, me, and Mr. Kwan do not get to decide what is so offensive other people don't get to see it.

There was a time, not too long ago, when people were using this exact line of argument to say that same-sex kissing, and couple, were too offensive for people to see or hear about. I don't give this type of censorship power to anyone, no matter how well-intentioned they might be, and even if (heck, ESPECIALLY IF) I agree with them.

Because, you know, principles.

I never thought I'd see the day when I'd have to explain concepts like, "Freedom of expression is good, even for idea you don't like" but here I am.

 

[Undrave]

After being pestered into removing it, through Twitter? Hardly 'on their own accord'.

So what? That's the free market for ya. Companies care about the bottom line, if the customer isn't happy, they'll find way to make them happy so they keep consuming.

So long as nobody is being threatened I have no problem with people expressing their opinion on a PUBLIC platform to a company's account specifically designed to interact with the public on this PUBLIC platform.

If we can 'pester' companies to cut toxic component to their product, or change the way they treat employees, we can pester them about offensive content we dislike. It's a part of business.

I'm sorry, but I'm just not seeing arguments for keeping OA. All I'm seeing are reactionary comment against the demand for removal itself and not the content. I'm not even arguing for its removal myself, I'm just not offended by the idea and I'm musing on the nature of our relationship with products and entertainment companies.

 

[Undrave]

But the non-selfish reason, again, is because I don't want ANY BOOKS taken down. Do you get that? Do you grok that?

And that means that I support the rights of books that I don't like, books as terrible as .... oh, 3e .... to continue to be up there. That is the whole point. You, me, and Mr. Kwan do not get to decide what is so offensive other people don't get to see it.

Yeah I can grok that... I just feel that it runs into the issue of putting undue pressure on publishers to stand by decisions not made by anybody currently working there and to keep their ENTIRE catalog current at all time...Hosting PDFs is cheaper than printing book, but it's not FREE either.

I think a way to solve this problem would actually involve a reform of copyright laws so that when a publisher abandons a work, anybody else can pick it up if they wish to do so.

 

[Charlaquin]

So basically you are not allowed to use fantasy in a fantasy RPG (number 5).

No, just don’t name elements of your fantasy game after real-world things from other cultures if they bear little to no actual resemblance to the thing you used the name of.

And when only Asian humans are allowed to use Asian themed classes in game

No one has suggested this.

the next step will be that only real life ethnic Asians are allowed to play those Asian humans as someone else playing them would also be white washing/cultural approbation

If you think this, you don’t understand the concept of cultural appropriation.

 

[Stefano Rinaldelli]

also speaking of Kwan, I think it needs to be reiterated: no matter what you make of his opinion on OA, I still feel his argument about removal is true: it's hypocritical for WotC to say they're going to be more culturally sensitive but still sell a book like that for profit.

Remove books from shelves. Not exactly like burning it, but...

I definitely prefer a world with racism than a world with books removed from shelves for inclusivness.