D&D 5E General rules, Specific worlds

Mercurius

Legend
One thread of "The Great Debate" that I haven't followed all that closely pertains to racial ability bonuses, but I think it highlights an underlying issue that filters into a lot of the other threads of the discussion, such as how to depict orcs, drow, etc.

With regards to the core rules, it seems WotC is in a bit of a pickle, a damned-if-you-do, damned-if-you-don't situation. If they present these ideas too generally, they lose a lot of flavor and everything becomes homogenized (e.g. orcs can be anything humans can, but just have pointy teeth); if they present things too specifically, they run the risk of depicting things in such a way that some will find offensive.

So what to do? I have argued for a "Big Tent" approach that provides general guidelines and many specific types and examples. The problem with this is mostly logistical: if you give orcs such a treatment, you're talking about quite a few pages, and thus less monsters and races. It also may lead to some degree of choice overload, which is problematic for new players. "Wait, which orc should I use?" At least as far as a starter set is concerned, some base assumptions are useful for starting players and DMs.

Another approach that I'd advocate for, and the main point of this thread, is a "general rules, specific worlds" approach. The way I see it working is like so:

Starter Sets: Keep it simple. Provide limited races and monsters, with some suggestion that they can exist in greater variation than as depicted in this product, as explored in the...

Core Rules: Broaden things up. Provide general descriptions, with numerous examples of specific treatments, from D&D history, literature, cinema, video games, etc. Emphasize (again and again) customization, that D&D is a game that is whatever you want it to be. Diminish canonical lore, making it specific to...

Worlds: This is where WotC can be more specific. The key is to highlight the uniqueness of each setting, and emphasize the contextual nature of each setting. In Eberron, orcs are this way; in the Forgotten Realms, this is the drow origin story.

Problems will arise, but easily addressed through clarifying the "general core, specific worlds" approach, and through emphasizing the customizable nature of D&D.

Another issue, mentioned above, is the page-count required to provide a wide range of possibilities. This can be done with some degree of moderation, though. For instance, the monster entry for Orc can include a paragraph discussing the wide ranging depictions of orcs in various media, and then offer fuller treatments of only a handful. A later product--perhaps digest-sized, like the Pathfinder pocket editions--could be printed that include only short descriptions and stat blocks of all monsters printed in the last few years.

But again, the approach I'm advocating is for a more general core rules, with specific and unique worlds. Some may dislike certain worlds, but they can always be customized ("I want Eberron orcs in Faerun") or, if not, there are other worlds to explore ("Faerun doesn't work for me, but Wildemount is interesting...").
 

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I just saw this thread.

Heh, threads like this are hard because it is easier to agree to complain than agree on what to do about it. Design is challenging.
 
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You describe the core rules being setting agnostic with lots of suggestions. This reminds me of D&D 1e Players Handbook and DMs Guide. Flavor has a light touch, often just a single sentence mentioned once somewhere, and often alongside other suggestions, and possibilities. 1e actively encouraged the DM to experiment.

I am ok if the "core rules" are the same thing as a flavorless SRD.

The setting guides are where to go into detail about how the cosmos and cultures work. But even then, there is wisdom to the 4e points-of-light design, where you flesh out some areas and leave other areas blank for the DM to fill in.

Right now the starter game is Forgotten Realms. Perhaps Eberron for a starter game is also possible.
 

Eyes of Nine

Everything's Fine
Core Rules: Broaden things up. Provide general descriptions, with numerous examples of specific treatments, from D&D history, literature, cinema, video games, etc. Emphasize (again and again) customization, that D&D is a game that is whatever you want it to be. Diminish canonical lore, making it specific to...

I would really like them to document the mathy bits and the fluffy bits for how to create the following on your own:
  • Classes
  • Backgrounds (although I can see the algorithm pretty easily there)
  • Races/Folk/Culture/Ancestries - whatever they come out for
  • Spells
  • Weapons
  • Armor
In other words I agree with you and take it further. Give a person a tool, and they'll hammer their thumb, give them a toolbox, and he'll umm... never live in a drafty house? Anyway. Yeah. Let us see what's under the hood so we can build our own.
 

aco175

Legend
Do you think that Wizards can produce specific worlds in this environment? If orcs in one world are just another player race and in another they are savage evil wouldn't people still complain? Maybe 3pp could produce world specific books, but then few people buy them. I worry that all the worlds would be very similar in regards to monsters and player races.
 

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
One thread of "The Great Debate" that I haven't followed all that closely pertains to racial ability bonuses, but I think it highlights an underlying issue that filters into a lot of the other threads of the discussion, such as how to depict orcs, drow, etc.

With regards to the core rules, it seems WotC is in a bit of a pickle, a damned-if-you-do, damned-if-you-don't situation. If they present these ideas too generally, they lose a lot of flavor and everything becomes homogenized (e.g. orcs can be anything humans can, but just have pointy teeth); if they present things too specifically, they run the risk of depicting things in such a way that some will find offensive.

So what to do? I have argued for a "Big Tent" approach that provides general guidelines and many specific types and examples. The problem with this is mostly logistical: if you give orcs such a treatment, you're talking about quite a few pages, and thus less monsters and races. It also may lead to some degree of choice overload, which is problematic for new players. "Wait, which orc should I use?" At least as far as a starter set is concerned, some base assumptions are useful for starting players and DMs.

Another approach that I'd advocate for, and the main point of this thread, is a "general rules, specific worlds" approach. The way I see it working is like so:

Starter Sets: Keep it simple. Provide limited races and monsters, with some suggestion that they can exist in greater variation than as depicted in this product, as explored in the...

Core Rules: Broaden things up. Provide general descriptions, with numerous examples of specific treatments, from D&D history, literature, cinema, video games, etc. Emphasize (again and again) customization, that D&D is a game that is whatever you want it to be. Diminish canonical lore, making it specific to...

Worlds: This is where WotC can be more specific. The key is to highlight the uniqueness of each setting, and emphasize the contextual nature of each setting. In Eberron, orcs are this way; in the Forgotten Realms, this is the drow origin story.

Problems will arise, but easily addressed through clarifying the "general core, specific worlds" approach, and through emphasizing the customizable nature of D&D.

Another issue, mentioned above, is the page-count required to provide a wide range of possibilities. This can be done with some degree of moderation, though. For instance, the monster entry for Orc can include a paragraph discussing the wide ranging depictions of orcs in various media, and then offer fuller treatments of only a handful. A later product--perhaps digest-sized, like the Pathfinder pocket editions--could be printed that include only short descriptions and stat blocks of all monsters printed in the last few years.

But again, the approach I'm advocating is for a more general core rules, with specific and unique worlds. Some may dislike certain worlds, but they can always be customized ("I want Eberron orcs in Faerun") or, if not, there are other worlds to explore ("Faerun doesn't work for me, but Wildemount is interesting...").

I like the ideas. I'm just struggling to see how the race section of the PHB would look with those changes. Or are races a component that's moving fully to the settings part?
 

Mercurius

Legend
I like the ideas. I'm just struggling to see how the race section of the PHB would look with those changes. Or are races a component that's moving fully to the settings part?

Good question. Short answer: haven't thought that deeply into it. I had the initial idea brewing over the last week, and fleshed it out as I wrote the OP.

My sense is not that different than now, but more general. Perhaps each race (and sub-race) would have a general description and then a sub-heading "Elves in D&D Worlds" that gives just general indicators, with full write-ups (e.g. Faerunian Gold Elves) in the setting books. Or something like that. The idea would be to direct players to specific worlds, and/or encourage DMs to design their own variants.

The key, I think, is de-tangling canonical lore from the core rules and inserting it into setting books. I've never loved the idea that all settings have the same basic background; I mean, in a way I like the quasi-Jungian idea of some kind of "archetypal world" of which all D&D worlds are manifest variations. On the other hand, I prefer to differentiate my own homebrews from core D&D, with my own origin stories for the various races.
 

I like the ideas. I'm just struggling to see how the race section of the PHB would look with those changes. Or are races a component that's moving fully to the settings part?

In my eyes, "Players Handbook" = "Forgotten Realms Players Guide". Since it already is a specific setting, I imagine it would continue to look moreorless the same. Moreorless the same format and same content. There is no alignment in the Players Handbook statblock for Elf, whether Drow, High, or Wood.

I am guessing, they will make the Drow description a bit more sophisticated, and highlight several different possibilities. Hopefully they remove Evil color coding. I hope the Drow were always black before Lolth and will remain black when there is no Lolth. That would be retcon to the Forgotten Realms lore, but most players are on board with this?

Personally, I would rather see "Orc" in the Players Handbook, than "Half-Orc". Then the Orc would get the same kind of rethinking that the Drow gets.
 
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