WotC Dungeons & Dragons Fans Seek Removal of Oriental Adventures From Online Marketplace

[Hussar]

I think it would be more like a Chinese writer writing a story about Europe and leaning heavily on English culture. It makes the books focus kind of narrow, and it is a bit annoying if you are trying to bring in more Korean or Chinese elements, but, again, I don't it is especially offensive morally. And it isn't like there were no other things in there. There were kung fu influences and Pemerton pointed to some of the Journey to the West influence as well. I do agree with you, that it could have been more broad, and I think that would have made the book better. Doesn't mean the book needs to stop being sold or doesn't have its uses.

I agree. The book doesn't need to be banned. However, I do support the notion of a disclaimer and then giving the money to charity.

 

[Umbran]

To take this analogy one step further, if the little kids are allowed to play with the big kid's toys yet the big kid isn't allowed to play with the little kids' toys, isn't that only going to make the big kid resentful?

If you divorce that from how the big kid starts out punching the little kids, taking their lunch money, and calling them names, you fail at analogizing.

 

[MGibster]

Guys, there's a point where the allegories which were created to illustrate a point shifts to become the very topic of discussion.

 

[Dire Bare]

Is this just because the language and art has changed? Because it seems to me the honour system, the melange of cultures, the portrayal of samurai and monks, and on and on are largely the same.

As in, isn’t one of the largest criticism of OA one of style. The way things are phrased... exotic, mystical etc rather than the core components - ancestor worship, samurai, shugenja, katana etc.

It's all of that. The "core components" including classes, races, monsters, regional write-ups . . . . it's all based on poor research, bad stereotypes, systemic Western racism, cultural appropriation . . . none of it's good. It's almost funny watching some of the podcast episodes where Asian American gamers are asked to find the positives in Oriental Adventures . . . they struggle to do so (but do find a few things).

 

[Enevhar Aldarion]

You do realize that Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon absolutely bombed in Asia right? It wasn't "all good". In fact, it was viewed as "what's this crap"?

It was filmed in China and in Mandarin, yet was not released there theatrically at all, nor was it released theatrically in Japan, so there was nothing to bomb.

 

[Umbran]

So 40% outside the USA for this site.

Or, alternatively, 80% from countries that are direct beneficiaries/results of British Imperialist expansion. To-may-to, to-mah-to.

@Umbran
Am I invested enough? I think so and I just don't agree with you.
[/QUOTE]

Personal pedigree or how much you are personally invested in another culture is not really the point. This is not a case of, 'Well, I have more connection with culture X than you, so I get to tell you that you are wrong."

 

[Myrdin Potter]

Or, alternatively, 80% from countries that are direct beneficiaries/results of British Imperialist expansion. To-may-to, to-mah-to.@Umbran
Am I invested enough? I think so and I just don't agree with you.

So the allegation is that this is just an American game directed at American gamers, so Canadian? Chinese are the ones best to determine is this is offensive enough to take action? I point out this site does not back that up (being American). The owner confirms it with stats, and then you quickly move the goal posts. That is really culturally insensitive of you to ignore the Americans casting off the shackles of the Evil British Empire.

Personal pedigree or how much you are personally invested in another culture is not really the point. This is not a case of, 'Well, I have more connection with culture X than you, so I get to tell you that you are wrong."
[/QUOTE]
I took your question as a challenge to my discussing the topic. So I guess I need to be Asian to discuss D&D rules? Asian Canadians have some special ability that I do not have? Why was the point of you asking me if I was invested in it? Was not my list good enough?

 

[Guest 6801328]

If you divorce that from how the big kid starts out punching the little kids, taking their lunch money, and calling them names, you fail at analogizing.

And that flaw...ignoring the full context...underlies almost every argument against change.

 

[Myrdin Potter]

And that flaw...ignoring the full context...underlies almost every argument against change.

Change is wonderful. Cambodians were so well served to change to Pol Pot because he saw the full context.

When the impetus for action is based on certain items requiring change for the reasons listed, then it is not ignoring the context to say that the items being used to advocate change are not what was claimed.

I am pretty comfortable with the change that resulted for the older material. A disclaimer is fine. That was a change.

 

[Chaosmancer]

I don't know if there is a way to reference the post directly above yours, but @Bacon Bits does make a pretty good point. OA was not aimed at anyone except vintage early 80's D&Ders. Clearly since TSR had 5 Japanese people playtest it, they thought that part of their audience would be especially appreciative, or at least better equipped to critique. Still, it was a supplement about how to take 'Kung Fu' and 'Samurai' as portrayed in pop American culture, and play it in D&D.

Now, I was 22 when this book came out. So I had SOME level of adult sophistication, and I recall being wise enough to take anything that was in D&D with a HUGE grain of salt. So I never thought OA was in any sense a comprehensive, or accurate, reference to anything. In fact I recall comparing it to how things were depicted in the game 'Bushido', which a particularly oddball guy in our group ran religiously (he'd lived for a good while in Japan, but he wasn't Japanese, only THOUGHT he was). I didn't think that was super authentic either perhaps, but it was (at least as he presented it) probably much more so than OA. I was actually a bit let down by OA and its obvious mechanical and stylistic quirks even then. Still, it seemed like a worthwhile attempt. I'm not sure it really should be lambasted too much even now. Its geeky and awkward, and CLASSICALLY TSR. I bet if we could go back to TSR's HQ c. 1985 we would find it to be a giant nerd palace. That's what we're seeing here, TSR nerd culture translating Hollywood Japan/China. Yes, it is silly awkward and even slightly painful, but nobody should get mad about it. Laughter is by far the best response, and a realization that time marches on and we seem ever more cosmopolitan.

I understand you, and again, no one is really saying that OA was made with an intent to be harmful, everyone agrees that TSR likely did the best job they could do for the time.

But, that doesn't mean it was a good job, and it doesn't mean that WoTC cannot work to do better in the future.

And part of the confusing clash on this thread and others is that some people are defending the right of OA to exist, and others are criticizing calls to do new books featuring cultures better, and those two groups keep getting tangled up in each other and making claims that have nothing to do with each other.

Because, respecting cultures in the future, has nothing to do with how OA was handled in the past.