WotC Dungeons & Dragons Fans Seek Removal of Oriental Adventures From Online Marketplace

[Cadence]

To take this analogy one step further, if the little kids are allowed to play with the big kid's toys yet the big kid isn't allowed to play with the little kids' toys, isn't that only going to make the big kid resentful?

Does the big kid live on land stolen from some of the little kids parents in a house built buy the parents of some of the others that were forced to build it?

 

[Myrdin Potter]

Does the big kid live on land stolen from some of the little kids parents in a house built buy the parents of some of the others that were forced to build it?

No.

Next question.

 

[Hussar]

/snip

the complaint I guess is that white people wrote it. I mean when it’s crouching tiger hidden dragon or Bruce f’ing Lee it’s all good. Or anime from Japan or whatever.
/snip

You do realize that Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon absolutely bombed in Asia right? It wasn't "all good". In fact, it was viewed as "what's this crap"?

 

[Hussar]

/snip
And really, why wouldn't Yakuza be a class? In China they may go by names like 'Tongs' or whatnot, but the same idea exists. It exists in Europe too, and we have the Thief class, who band together into 'guilds', etc. (this could be interpreted to be something like 'The Black Hand' if you want, though the idea is more generalized than that). /snip

However, it is what it is, and we've long since moved on from 1e anyway. WotC put a disclaimer on it, which I think is awesome. If they choose to demonitize it, that is up to them, but it wouldn't be a bad gesture. My guess is that the revenue from this book is minuscule anyway, so it is more a cheap way to win a few hearts and minds than anything else, business-wise.

Yet, we don't call "thief" or "rogue" a mafioso. Or Medellin. No, we call them a thief or a rogue. And, let's not forget, EVERY class in the OA, barring wu jen, and most of the races too, are straight out of Japanese culture and language.

But, yeah, we agree here, so, now we're just arguing over minor elements.

 

[Hussar]

I can see both sides. If the artist really wants to depict something Chinese, then the katana is inappropriate, certainly alien. I can see why Chinese people are touchy about Japanese culture too, they have NOT even started to forget WWII. So, if I'm Chinese and looking at the panda with a katana, it probably irritates me. It may also represent ignorance by the artist, which is irritating too. OTOH you are right, maybe this was exactly the image that the artist intended, a Samurai Panda. Of course we don't really know.
/snip

My bet is that is what happened with the Samurai Panda, and the result is pretty cool!

So, you have no problem with someone complaining about a work, and the artist changing the work. So, where's the problem here?

 

[Hussar]

I think we're agreed that OA is not very coy about where its ideas are taken from. As you note, names are given using various extent Asian languages. The fantasy realms are fairly clearly derived from real historical places and pictures in East Asia. But that doesn't answer the cultural appropriate objection, whether framed through the lens of power or of authenticity.

Umm, it's not a "various" set of sources. It's one source. Japan. Virtually the entire book presents Japan as the only extent culture in Asia. That's where the notion of cultural appropriation comes in. You have American writers presenting a work that is meant to be representative of a wide range of cultures (the Orient) that is, in actuality, only representative of one culture, relegating all other cultures to the background or not even mentioning them at all.

It's no different than white writers trying to write a story about Aboriginal history by pretending that all Aborigines are Maori. It's tone deaf at the very least.

 

[Bedrockgames]

You do realize that Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon absolutely bombed in Asia right? It wasn't "all good". In fact, it was viewed as "what's this crap"?

Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon was based on a Chinese wuxia novel, and two of the writers were Chinese I believe. The director grew up watching wuxia movies and the film is an homage to the classics. And the villain is a former major wuxia action star, Cheng Pei Pei. I too have heard it wasn't as well received in China, Hong Kong and Taiwan. But most of the complaints I had heard were things like they've seen most of it before and they've seen it done better. I think a lot of Americans who know a lot about wuxia, will sometimes look down on it, but I think it isn't like the movie doesn't understand the genre it is operating in. Personally I tend to prefer classic shaw brothers movies and the 90s wuxia stuff, but I still enjoy Crouching Tiger, and it isn't like its existence is morally offensive.

 

[Bedrockgames]

Umm, it's not a "various" set of sources. It's one source. Japan. Virtually the entire book presents Japan as the only extent culture in Asia. That's where the notion of cultural appropriation comes in. You have American writers presenting a work that is meant to be representative of a wide range of cultures (the Orient) that is, in actuality, only representative of one culture, relegating all other cultures to the background or not even mentioning them at all.

It's no different than white writers trying to write a story about Aboriginal history by pretending that all Aborigines are Maori. It's tone deaf at the very least.

I think it would be more like a Chinese writer writing a story about Europe and leaning heavily on English culture. It makes the books focus kind of narrow, and it is a bit annoying if you are trying to bring in more Korean or Chinese elements, but, again, I don't it is especially offensive morally. And it isn't like there were no other things in there. There were kung fu influences and Pemerton pointed to some of the Journey to the West influence as well. I do agree with you, that it could have been more broad, and I think that would have made the book better. Doesn't mean the book needs to stop being sold or doesn't have its uses.

 

[Hussar]

Yeah thats the thing.
The ones complaining about the misrepresentation and appropriation of Asian cultures here are in fact not part of said cultures but still insist that they speak "for them".

You sure about that?

((Looks out his window))

 

[Hussar]

I mean, D&D includes Paladins with only a very cursory similarity to palatial Roman guards or the knights of the Holy Roman Empire. Instead, it cribs more from Three Hearts Three Lions (along with Law vs Chaos alignment and Swanmays) than it does from Song of Roland. Because the authors were more interested in mimicking pop culture from contemporary fantasy novels than it ever was of mimicking history. Rangers were a thing in historic England, but the ones present in the PHB have more in common with Daniel Boone and Davy Crockett than a Sheriff of the King's Forests, to say nothing of the influence of Aragorn and Lord of the Rings. Barbarians don't come from historically representing less developed cultures; they come from Robert E Howard. Wizards come to us by way of Jack Vance. Clerics refusing to use edged weapons is not historical. Druids are at least as ahistoric as Monks are. Studded leather armor and banded mail are not historical. The orcs, elves, dwarves, goblins, dragons, etc., in D&D don't come from European historic folklore. They come from Tolkien and other contemporary fantasy novels.

Yet, every single element you name is written by a Westerner or is part of Western culture and is meant to represent more than a single nation. Heck, you rhymed off half a dozen different nations being represented just by the classes. Never minding the monsters, magic items, spells, and the art. You want more slavic based D&D? You have Ravenloft.

Not historical isn't really the issue. The issue being the ONLY culture being used to represent a huge area is Japan. The names, the mythology, the classes, so on and so forth. Heck, even the code of honor stuff is pulled straight out of Bushido and ignores differing views.

Like I said, it's presenting Europe as consisting of only France because, well, all the real culture and whatnot comes from France. Everything else is unimportant.

Is that an artifact of the time? Probably. Like you said, the information was maybe less available. Although, I'm thinking that your local library actually may have had a fair bit of Chinese, Thai, Cambodian, Korean or whatnot information, if you actually wanted to look.