D&D 5E Monks Suck

Mobility on the Monk is wasted unfortunately, given how little they can do with it.

You mean that Mobility on the Monk is wasted unfortunately given that they get most of its main bonuses for free? (Fast movement and easy disengages). And the feat being almost pointles on them somehow is a problem?

Plus, anyone can buy a horse and be as/more mobile than the Monk.

I too have characters who ride a horse through dungeons and across rooftops. And that consider being large doesn't do anything to harm their mobility. And who consider basing their mobility on an AC 11 19hp thing to be smart play.
 

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Immoralkickass

Adventurer
Then the DM is not playing the horse correctly. These are things that a horse would simply refuse to do, no mater how many points you have in Handle Animal.
Maybe you just suck at training horses. Mine works fine. Besides, a horse summoned by Find Steed is not really a horse, but a spirit in the form of one. It goes wherever i want it to go.
 

Maybe you just suck at training horses. Mine works fine.
Only because the DM allows something that should be impossible.

Bad DM is bad.
Besides, a horse summoned by Find Steed is not really a horse, but a spirit in the form of one. It goes wherever i want it to go.
It's still a large creature, which means it (and anyone riding it) should have disadvantage on all attacks in a typical sized dungeon corridor.

And that is before you try and fit it through the 6' by 3' typical dungeon doorway.
 
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Wait what?

Bro, what?

So, even ignoring the Mobile feat, you’ve got at least 3 subclasses with direct “hit and fade” mechanics. Drunken Master Disengages every time it uses FoB. Shadow has bonus action teleport, albeit at level 6. Open Hand can deny a target their reaction any time you hit it.

That's hit and RUN, to fade you gotta lose the enemy, at least in that they have to guess where you are. Shadow gets real good at it at 11th though still lacks a bonus action hide to go with their action invisible, meaning they're more inflicting disadvantage than actually losing people (RAW anyway).

Er, hit points? Opportunity attacks? Why are you talking about those irrelevancies?

The way the monk "takes out" a caster is locking them down with Stunning Strike, so they can't take actions or reactions, and thus can't cast.

Sure, but that's still subject to most of the limitations I'm describing, and indeed also requires that the target fail CON saves (which are sometimes pretty good on casters, esp. non-demihumans).

Basically it turns the Monk into a slightly more reliable Hold Person or Hold Monster spell, albeit on you can defeat by killing or CC'ing, and which will run out of juice in about 1 fight per SR if they're really going for a hard lockdown.

Every round you need to land a hit, and they need to fail a CON save. You have a lot of attacks, so you will probably land one, and if they pass the save, you may get a second or third chance to make them fail, so it's more reliable than, say, Hold Person. But it's basically your entire deal.

And it's almost never necessary. As I said, whatever way you spin it, it's a false role. Monk is, at best the very low-grade superhero, "Stunning Strike Man".
 

Only because the DM allows something that should be impossible.

Bad DM is bad.

This is a bit off, Paul. There's nothing bad about that DMing given it's a Find Steed spirit-horse (which is magically intelligent and all sorts). If it was a real horse, well, then it's more about the realism/heroism level of the campaign (including on how well-built those roofs are!).

Agree re: squeezing in most dungeons though.

It's almost like monks get compared to the damage of a GWF, the AC of a plate and shield fighter, the hp of a Barbarain, the mobility of a rogue (or is it a horse), the saves of a paladin and somehow not being able to do better than all that combined at once makes a monk suck?

That's not a fair assessment of this thread, though. Even if you compare to just one of the given classes, they don't look great. As with all 5E classes, they're basically playable and not grotesquely out of whack (which remains an achievement that only 5E and 4E have managed), but they're a class in search of a role, and the only role they seem to be able to find that is clearly theirs is "Spam Stunning Strike". The Ki limitations are also a major problem until they're not.

I mean, I think one thing that would help slightly would be to get rid of the stupid linear Ki gain. It just doesn't fit with 5E's design. More Ki gained at lower levels, and less at higher would be a good start.

Beyond that, finding ways for them to work beyond spamming Stunning Strike is going to require some sort of redesign outside the scope of 5E. For me, I think what is particularly sad is that the ability they are likely to get most mileage out of (arguably FoB is equal, but going to be less noticed) is a pretty dull-but-solid one that mostly benefits everyone but them, and keeps having to be used repeatedly, rather than the subclasses having equally cool uses for Ki. I mean, honestly I'd consider removing or limiting Stunning Strike to open up that design space.

The versatility is great in theory, and it can work in practice, but you run out of juice terrifyingly fast at lower levels, which is where people play most campaigns.

For me it feels like the Monk suffers in three ways - firstly, because 5E's designers inexplicably (and still, to judge from Theros), wildly overvalue unarmoured AC, unarmed attacks, and to a lesser extent, mobility. Unarmoured AC is very rarely more than an aesthetic choice, and both it and unarmed attacks are often objectively worse than the alternatives (esp. as magic items get involved). Mobility is likewise, in my experience anyway, rarely an issue (and even less of one in TtoM). Secondly, because it leans hard into nostalgia, in terms of what abilities it has, rather than really being considered in a modern way. Thirdly, because it's a half-arsed design, which leans hard on an ability that is inherently a bit boring and mostly benefits others, and you have to keep using.
 
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FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
1) How do arrive at these numbers? For example at level 5 I'm getting Monk DPR of (2*4.5 + 3.5)*0.65 + 4*3*0.60 = 15.325, and SR damage equals to 5(3.5*0.65 + 4*0.60) = 23.375, for effective DPR of 18.24687.
2) What maneuver is the BM performing? I assume a maneuver that gives 4.5 damage and some control effect.
3) I get a Battlemaster DPR of 2*(2*3.5+1.33)*0.65 + 2*4*0.60 = 15.629, with SR damage equals to 15.629 + 4.5*4 =33.629, for effective DPR of 19.52862.

Chance to hit + 60%
After ASI 65%
After 2nd ASI = 70%

Battlemaster I’m just using any that adds +4.5 damage. There are maneuvers that can get a little more damage.
 
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DND_Reborn

The High Aldwin
Chance to hit + 60%
After ASI 65%
After 2nd ASI = 70%
The right idea but it is more like:

Chance to hit + 60%
After not taking an ASI 55%
After not taking a 2nd ASI = 50%

ACs improve 2 points per tier (on average). Proficiency makes up one of those increases, and ASI make up for the second increase.

Thus, by taking ASIs you can keep pace with AC increases. If you have magic items (most games at higher levels) you can edge ahead again with both ASI and magic, more getting the percentages you suggest (65 and 70).
 

DEFCON 1

Legend
Supporter
Whether the Monk sucks or not is directly related to the other characters in the party, and if its duties as part of the group are being superceded by another character.

If your group is a Barbarian, Life Cleric, Monk, and Sorcerer... then the Monk has free range to be as awesome as it can be. Cause none of the other three characters are going to be able to do what the Monk does.

But if your party has a Bard, Moon Druid, Dex Fighter, Thief Rogue, and the Monk... then yeah, the Monk will probably be worse by comparison. And perhaps the player playing the Monk should swap over to a heavy armor Paladin so their niche is protected.
 

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
The right idea but it is more like:

Chance to hit + 60%
After not taking an ASI 55%
After not taking a 2nd ASI = 50%

ACs improve 2 points per tier (on average). Proficiency makes up one of those increases, and ASI make up for the second increase.

Thus, by taking ASIs you can keep pace with AC increases. If you have magic items (most games at higher levels) you can edge ahead again with both ASI and magic, more getting the percentages you suggest (65 and 70).

You do your examples however you want. I’ll do mine how I want.
 

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