D&D 5E Monks Suck

[Flamestrike]

Well yeah... if we have an idea what they look like when exhausted, we can have a better understanding of the impact of each resource on the the strength of the class itself.

With everything (and I mean everything) other than HP and HD expended, I'd have my money on a Rogue in a lvl 20 slugfest.

They're the only resource neutral Class in the game, and all their archetypes (other than the AT) follow suite.

A Swashbuckler Rogue likely takes out a GWM fighter (out of action surge, no sup dice, no second wind, no indomitable).

He reliably does 50+ damage a round, every round (2 attacks via TWF, one with re-roll, only needs to hit once).

The Fighter (toggling GMW on) likely only hits back around twice (out of 4 swings) in return (and one of those hits has its damage halved due to uncanny dodge) for around 35 damage.

At that rate of HP attrition (and bearing in mind the Swashbuckler goes first at Cha plus Dex to initiative) the Fighter drops before the Rogue does.

 

[Undrave]

With everything (and I mean everything) other than HP and HD expended, I'd have my money on a Rogue in a lvl 20 slugfest.

They're the only resource neutral Class in the game, and all their archetypes (other than the AT) follow suite.

A Swashbuckler Rogue likely takes out a GWM fighter (out of action surge, no sup dice, no second wind, no indomitable).

He reliably does 50+ damage a round, every round (2 attacks via TWF, one with re-roll, only needs to hit once).

The Fighter (toggling GMW on) likely only hits back around twice (out of 4 swings) in return (and one of those hits has its damage halved due to uncanny dodge) for around 35 damage.

At that rate of HP attrition (and bearing in mind the Swashbuckler goes first at Cha plus Dex to initiative) the Fighter drops before the Rogue does.

This class VS class fighting thing doesn't feel that useful. Some classes are just that much better at that sort of thing. I think it'd be more interesting to see them in combat against monsters, side by side and see who would struggle the most.

 

[Flamestrike]

If the Fighter has had a recent Short rest, the Rogue dies on turn 1 of course (as long as the fighter can reach him).

Action surge, GWM, precise strike to ensure misses hit, and tripping attack to deal extra damage and knock the Rogue prone) means the Rogue is paste on turn 1.

 

[Flamestrike]

This class VS class fighting thing doesn't feel that useful. Some classes are just that much better at that sort of thing. I think it'd be more interesting to see them in combat against monsters, side by side and see who would struggle the most.

As a general rule, the Rogue, again.

Its resource neutral. All other classes rely on resources for potency. The Rogue doesnt (other than HP and HD).

A Paladin full of slots, or a Wizard with all slots, or a Fighter with action surge and superiority dice up his sleeve is deadlier (by far). But if those slots and resources are all gone, the Rogue wins.

 

[Undrave]

As a general rule, the Rogue, again.

Its resource neutral. All other classes rely on resources for potency. The Rogue doesnt (other than HP and HD).

A Paladin full of slots, or a Wizard with all slots, or a Fighter with action surge and superiority dice up his sleeve is deadlier (by far). But if those slots and resources are all gone, the Rogue wins.

Right, but where does the Monk without resources fit in on this ranking?

 

[Flamestrike]

The Rogue doesnt use resources, it uses tactics and set up. Knowing when to disengage, when to use uncanny dodge, how to set up sneak attack, when to ambush and so forth.

On the flip side, it cant nova. But it can do its things at will, all day long, and can do them well when everyone else is knackered.

 

[Flamestrike]

Right, but where does the Monk without resources fit in on this ranking?

Not great. 3 attacks dealing 1d10+5 damage is on par with the Wizards cantrips for DPR, and around the same as Ranger with no slots.

Movement speed remains good, and most defences are still working (no re-rolls on saves, but proficient in all of them, can still deflect arrows, retains most immunities, no Ki Dodge, cant go intangible or astrally project).

 

[FrogReaver]

No I am not talking about a solo enemy. I am talking about all foes, in groups or as solos. It's the average, with all the CRs mentioned listed there. I am no more talking about a solo than you were when you mentioned that range of CRs.



No it is not. You're misinterpreting that list. A CR 8 foe for a level 8 party should have FOUR CR 8 FOES. Not solo. The CR system isn't build well for solos. If you wanted to challenge a Level 8 party with a solo, you should be picking around CR 12.



Now you're a moving target. We were talking about the odds you stun someone as often as you claimed you would. Stay on topic my man.



OK, go ahead. If you don't like the work someone else does, then you're welcome to do the work you propose. But don't ask others to do your homework

You listed a 5th level party against a cr 8 creature as a deadly encounter?

A party of level 5 pcs should be able to take a group of cr 5 enemies as a deadly encounter right?

It’s possible I’m still misunderstanding your post but if so it’s not like it was super clear to begin with.

 

[Mort]

Not great. 3 attacks dealing 1d10+5 damage is on par with the Wizards cantrips for DPR, and around the same as Ranger with no slots.

Movement speed remains good, and most defences are still working (no re-rolls on saves, but proficient in all of them, can still deflect arrows, retains most immunities, no Ki Dodge, cant go intangible or astrally project).

Just as a quibble, monks aren't proficient in all saves until 14th level - that's way too late in the game to count as one of their big benefits!

War wizards get a big plus at 2nd level and Paladins get a big plus at 6th - much more in line with "usual" play levels.

 

[Esker]

You forgot deflect missile. One of your bolts practically do no damage (1 pts) because deflect missile reduces damage by an average of 15 points at level 5. This leaves the monk pretty much alive.

Yep, you're right; let's fix that.

Needing a nat 16 or higher to hit), I will use precision attack when the d20 is between 8 and 15, which happens 40% of the time. On average, when I use precision attack I hit 56% of the time (the average of 1/8 through 8/8, since each margin is equally likely). The other 60% of the time (1-7 and 16-20), I hit 5/12 of the time. Overall 47% of my attacks hit. With 5 attacks at 16.5 damage per hit, that's an average of 39 damage, but one attack is deflected, reducing the damage by 14.5. So all together, we'll call it 24 damage for the turn, and the monk is up.