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D&D (2024) (+) New Edition Changes for Inclusivity (discuss possibilities)

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Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
And this is just speculation, right? No evidence for this?

I think it would make sense for them to sell less if they didn't have the new classes in it, but I also think that it would help the 6e's design process in the long run to have those classes in the PHB right off the bat.

It's speculation.
But WOTC really markets their books with new classes and subclasses harder. So I would get they sell very well.

And with how whiny the community can get about "which classes should be officially in the game" I could see them packaging controversial classes like psions and artificers in setting books to hit two birds audiences with one stone book.

It's not the same as when bard, barbarian, and druid were held back from the PHB and the monk even further.
 

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Mistwell

Crusty Old Meatwad (he/him)
If bigotry will always find a platform then people who are opposed to it are then obligated to make sure giving a platform to bigotry isn't incentivized by those in positions of authority and power. Disincentivizing people with hateful views from engaging in spreading hateful rhetoric is a legitimate tactic for persuading the larger audience.

I think it's a weak tactic. I am not speaking to legitimacy, I am speaking to effectiveness. It doesn't disincentive people from speaking bigoted views - are you seriously suggesting denying platforms makes bigots not speak bigotry? All it does is shift their bigoted speech to forums where good speech isn't responding directly to them and to the audience they are appealing to. It just denies you the opportunity to counter their speech, while giving them the ability to tell their audience "They don't want you to hear our words because they fear what we have to say."

We're not obligated to give those who hate us a microphone and go point by point to underline why what they're saying is wrong to prove the merits of our argument that we shouldn't be hated.

I never suggested anyone was OBLIGATED, I suggested an open debate is the most effective means of good speech defeating bad speech. A Lincoln-Douglass style debate where you show your willingness to directly confront views you disagree with, where each party speaks to the arguments of the other party, and where the good speech has the opportunity to counter the bad speech, is the most effective means of defeating bad speech.

If that's what it takes to persuade indifferent people that being indifferent to hate is wrong then it is easy to see the cracks in that system.

It's not indifference.
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
I think it's a weak tactic. I am not speaking to legitimacy, I am speaking to effectiveness.

Mod Note:

This is not really about gaming. The thread, and the site, is about RPGs, remember?

We have been allowing some leeway, but it is time to bring it back in, please. Make it about gaming, or let it go, folks.
 


DnD Warlord

Adventurer
No artificer or psion? I think WotC could save a lot of trouble next time they're making Eberron be a setting in the next edition by having the Artificer be a base class.
Useing my feat/talent character build idea an artificer could be just picking artificer like class features
 

Chaosmancer

Legend
Also, here's a response from a friend who specializes in First Amendment law who is somewhat of a free speech absolutist and has some issues with that framing.

Exactly this.

Let them stand on the street corner and yell out why this or that is the downfall of society, or that if you treat women this way you can have lots of sex.

I'm not building them a stage and inviting them onto my lawn though. Plenty of other people doing that for them because they agree with them. Those of us who disagree don't need to make them more visible as well.

This is actually a problem in modern issues like Climate Change. The Scientific community has around a 90% agreement on the problems, but to be "fair" and "balanced" they bring on people with a limited understanding of science, to spot nonsense and make it seem like there is a big debate that needs to be resolved before we know tht
 

Hussar

Legend
Also, as someone that actually suffers from a mental illness, the talk of madness and insanity makes me roll my eyes as it's very primitive, uninformed, and (unwittingly) reinforces some bad ideas and stigmas about mental health issues.

I always kinda wondered about that.

D&D has never dealt with insanity very well. Characters are almost never challenged that way - nobody has PTSD or whatever - unless it's some sort of "curse" or, more commonly, magical effect.

OTOH, do we want that much realism in our fantasy supers game?

To give an example (and a poor one at that), I recently cursed a couple of PC's in my Saltmarsh game. They bathed in pools devoted to Baphomet, twice willingly and once coerced through a charm, and I handed them a curse. The curse was that they were now tainted by Baphomet. The taint did not mean that their behavior had to change in any way. They were still perfectly free to do anything they wanted, except for one thing, they were not horrified by the taint, but, rather saw it as a blessing. That was the sum total of the "insanity" I inflicted on the players.

Two of the players (one who was infected and one who wasn't) absolutely lost their collective naughty word. How DARE I remove player agency. How DARE I inflict a curse without warning. On and on. To the point, where it became the straw the broke the camels back and I stopped DMing for that group. Just ruined any fun I was having. ((Note, there were other issues as well. Those are not pertinent to the discussion at hand))

But, that's the reaction of some players to the notion of adding an insanity to the characters. Absolutely refused to go with it. Hated it with a passion.

I very, very much don't have an answer here.
 




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