Level Up (A5E) What is the vision of the high level fighter?

[Micah Sweet]

restrict? RESTRICT!?!?!

Joking aside, I dont see how casters are restricted. Because they cant use weapons and armors? Their spells can bring them nearly on par with all other classes. Because they must spend a resources? That resource comes back after a good night! You cant be ever described as ''restricted'' when you can bend reality one time a day!

But I agree with you that nerfing other classes to make the mundanes look good is not that great as a design idea

By restrict I mean from the heady heights of 3e/3.5. I actually like where casters are in 5e now in so far as power is concerned (for the most part; I do have issues with the current concentration mechanic).

 

[dave2008]

One of the core problems of post-TSR non-4e D&D is that there's no real vision of what a high level fighter should be. Fundamentally a first level fighter moves at a human's pace and swings a sharpened piece of metal hard and fast at enemies in arms' length to kill them. A 20th level fighter ... moves at a human's pace and swings a sharpened piece of metal at enemies in arms' length to kill them. Meanwhile the wizard has graduated from burning hands a couple of times a day to permanently shapeshifting into a dragon, creating demiplanes, and casting Wish.

This wasn't the case in TSR era D&D for multiple reasons:

• The game was effectively soft-capped at level 9 or 10 due to the XP charts
• The fighter as a class feature got a small army as well as lands, and the small army gave them their ability to do weird things
• The wizard had far fewer spells known, and especially a much weaker choice of them
• Levels didn't claim to be equal; there were different XP tracks for different classes.

It also wasn't true in 4e with its reigned in magic and fighters who could do some pretty impressive things at epic level. But it's been true in 3.0, 3.5, and 5e. And is something that could and should be fixed.

So what does it mean for the fighter to level up in Level Up? Is the fighter an inherently low level archetype?

• The Mythic Fighter - Beowulf, CuChulain, Hercules, Roland, Outlaws of the Water Margin. The high level fighter is the demigod of mythology, able to perform ridiculous feats of strength and physical ability, leaving reality far behind.
• The Deadly Fighter - John Wick, et al. The deadly fighter putting a sword through someone kills them dead - and none of this "hit points" nonsense that makes a high level fighter feel like they are wielding boffer swords. Instead what they hit they normally kill (literal gods may be merely discorporated) irrespective of defences, and the trick is delivering the fighter to the target. And they can also do the old AD&D trick of one attack per class level per round against weak foes to thresh their way through minions.
• The Noble - the AD&D fighter writ large, with more troops and more elite troops as they level up. The fighter themselves is deadly - but so are their minions. Even this breaks down after about level 14 or so.
• The Level Cap - fighters are inherently mundane and simply do not have the potential to hang with the big boys. Cap them at level 10.

This, of course, is a perfect case for Prestige Classes - at level 10 the fighter picks one of the above options as well as or instead of continuing to level up as a fighter. Possibly as a second subclass.

The rogue of course has a similar problem and needs its own discussion.

I prefer to have fighters lvl 1-10 to be treated as "mundane" if extraordinary and levels 11+ to be super heroic. Able to do things you see in movies and cartoons (attacking from a distance with a sword or slicing through multiple foes with one swing or cutting through a castle wall, etc.

 

[Tales and Chronicles]

I think one way of doing it, if we are going in the supernatural fighter at higher level (which is not my favorite way) would be to look at the now discarded Mystic. Pick their less-magical disciplines at refluff them as fighter ''techniques'', a little like Bo9S; they even come with built-in Stances. I personally hate the idea of a resource-bound fighter, but that could be one way of doing it:

Brute Force

Stance. While focused on this discipline, you have advantage on Strength (Athletics) checks

Brute Strike (1-7 psi). As a bonus action, you gain a bonus to your next damage roll against a target you hit with a melee attack during the current turn. The bonus equals +1d6 per psi point spent, and the bonus damage is the same type as the attack. If the attack has more than one damage type, you choose which one to use for the bonus damage.
Knock Back (1-7 psi). When you hit a target with a melee attack, you can activate this ability as a reaction. The target must succeed on a Strength saving throw or be knocked 10 feet away from you per psi point spent. The target moves in a straight line. If it hits an object, this movement immediately ends and the target takes 1d6 bludgeoning damage per psi point spent.
Mighty Leap (1-7 psi). As part of your movement, you jump in any direction up to 20 feet per psi point spent.
Feat of Strength (2 psi). As a bonus action, you gain a +5 bonus to Strength checks until the end of your next turn.

Skirmisher

Stance. While focused on this discipline, you have advantage on initiative rolls.

Precognitive Hunch (2 psi; conc., 1 min.).
As a bonus action, you open yourself to receive momentary insights that improve your odds of success; until your concentration ends, whenever you make an attack roll, a saving throw, or an ability check, you roll a d4 and add it to the total.

All-Around Sight (3 psi).
In response to an attack hitting you, you use your reaction to impose disadvantage on that attack roll, possibly causing it to miss.

Danger Sense (5 psi; conc., 8 hr.).
As an action, you create a psychic model of reality in your mind and set it to show you a few seconds into the future. Until your concentration ends, you can't be surprised, attack rolls against you can't gain advantage, and you gain a +10 bonus to initiative.

Victory Before Battle (7 psi).
When you roll initiative, you can use this ability to grant yourself and up to five creatures of your choice within 60 feet of you a +10 bonus to initiative.

 

[J-H]

Without reading responses, a high-level fighter is Cloud, Captain America, or Simon Belmont. He can take hits that others can't take, is more physically mobile than other characters, and hits hard, accurately, and often.

It's notable and relevant that we are not having this discussion for the Barbarian. The Barbarian capstone and speed increases are exactly what you'd want for a higher-level fighter-type. Accuracy, power, durability, mobility.

I do not have a specific answer for how to make this happen without stealing the Barbarian's thunder.

 

[Tales and Chronicles]

By restrict I mean from the heady heights of 3e/3.5. I actually like where casters are in 5e now in so far as power is concerned (for the most part; I do have issues with the current concentration mechanic).

Indeed, when compared to 3.5, they are even pretty weak

The gap between mundanes and caster in 5e is way smaller than in previous editions. And its not really a power gap than a breadth of options gap. Casters and half casters can cover a lot of roles. Mundanes (rogue are the exception, here) cant.

 

[TheSword]

Fighters get a bucket load of feats and that’s where the interesting stuff happens.

 

[NotAYakk]

Superhuman is just low level supernatural.

Attacking 4 times in the time a normal trained fighter can attack once with ANY weapon is supernatural.

Do you consider acrion movie stars in hollywood films to be supernatural? "manifestations or events considered to be of supernatural origin, such as ghosts."

If so, sure. You are just arguing definitions, which is boring. I was drawing a distinction between terms (supernatural vs superhuman) for the purpose of discussion, and you refused to consider it.

Zzz.

 

[Minigiant]

Do you consider acrion movie stars in hollywood films to be supernatural? "manifestations or events considered to be of supernatural origin, such as ghosts."

Yes. If it breaks the laws of nature or science, it's supernatural.
Some of the times they do can't be done.

If so, sure. You are just arguing definitions, which is boring. I was drawing a distinction between terms (supernatural vs superhuman) for the purpose of discussion, and you refused to consider it.

Zzz.

I'm just saying that the base concept of a high level fighter as is, breaks the laws of nature and science.
It does so very slightly, but the rules are broken.

The point is there is a range, a spectrum of how supernatural a high level fighter can be.
The default is just past the realistic stage, in the Superhuman stage.
You can pull it back to reality and make the class build on followers, keeps, or magic items.
Or you can push for more supernatural effects like immunities, super strength, and extra senses.
Or you can tilt all the way and just make them have "fightin' magic"

It's up to the DM and player.

 

[Laurefindel]

My issue with high-level fighter vs high-level wizard isn’t so much that wizards can cast wish and fighters cannot. It’s that wizards can cast wish every day, at any time, without sacrifice, and more importantly, without help.

Everything above level 10 starts to become pretty gonzo, but some classes get more gonzo than others. I’d be ok to give the fighter (and martials in general) more gonzo past a certain point, mostly because I know I’m not going to be interested to play past that point. If A5E is going to grab my attention, it’s by making tiers of play explicit enough that I can tell my players from the start that we are not going to play past tier 2, and not make them feel like like I’m only offering them half the game. I wished D&D tiers of play were more contained.

im not even against a one-in-a-lifetime wish spell in a tier 2 play, but I wished I had a way clear and fair way to bonify tier 2 play with elements from the full range of the game other than levelling up.

Heracles is a superior human for sure. He can be made in D&D as high level, but he can also just be from a superior « race » (being half god and all) and deck-up to the wazzoo with magic items and divine blessings.

 

[dave2008]

I think that’s a worse way of handling it. It works. So does my proposal. They both have drawbacks.

I some ways I agree, but it is the only way to handle it and let the wizard keep its goodies.

I've been thinking about making every spell above 5th level rituals / scrolls, which is fine for my group, but it is not a D&D wizard to a lot of people.