Level Up (A5E) What is the vision of the high level fighter?

[Chaosmancer]

A lot of interesting thoughts here. I like the idea of prestige classes that let you specialize, I always felt that was a super cool mechanic of showing you've entered a new tier of play, by taking on a more impressive title and set of powers.

Thoughts in no particular order

I don't like the idea of the noble fighter, for two reasons. 1) Anyone should be able to get followers. I mean, a paladin or cleric can found a church and get a bunch of followers, I feel like this is more of an ability based in the story, maybe an alternative rule set like Colville did, for letting anyone who wants it get a follower and start dealing with the issues of landed people. 2) If they bring an army to fight, combat crawls. The sheer number of people to keep track of will slow things down. Also, while the fighter might have brough 15 archers, then there is no reason for the cleric to not summon an War Angel and that is cooler and will have a bigger impact. So I don't think we can base the fighter around that concept.



Another thing we should think about is giving the fighter the ability to control people in melee. There was a recent discussion of grappling on GiTP and point has come up that Fighters and Barbarians simply have no way to prevent an enemy caster from casting a spell, per RAW. A lot of people are even arguing against a proposed example which would take 4 checks (used as attacks, so one round with action surge) to restrain a caster to the point of not being able to cast, and keep the fighter locked into doing nothing but preventing that single person from acting.

Meanwhile, casters have an embarrassment of options for locking down single targets or multiple targets, without even preventing them from doing other things. So, if we want some parity, there needs to be a way for a fighter to deny at least a single foe their actions. Doesn't have to be easy, just possible.



I wonder if you could lean into the "war" and "battlefield" parts of the fighter. They know combat like no one else, and that gives them ways to move and act in combat like no one else. Maybe fighters just grant disadvantage to AO's constantly, because they know where that strike is coming from. Maybe an archer gets a free shot on an enemy that leaves cover, or enters their line of sight for the first time, like all those scenes where someone turns and shoots the goons coming in the door.




Fighters need something for out of combat. Like was said, mages get so many scenes and eventually are shaping the course of the game by gathering information, crafting relics, transporting the party, binding powers. I'm not really sure how to do this though.



What if fighters started needing less sleep and became resistant to exhaustion? I don't know if it would ever be super relevant, but one of the things that you always hear about epic fighters is that they battled some foe "for many days", well, what if that became something they could do? A 15th level fighter only needs to sleep 4 hours for a long rest, and they can just ignore the first two times they would gain a level of exhaustion.

It wouldn't help though, because the wizard would still need eight hours and rests, so it couldn't really effect gameplay too much, but pulling that endless vitality card could be neat.

 

[Asisreo]

never said it was for combat. Could be for scouting, intimidation, having to grab something floating up there. A 1000 reasons. So I would like to know how the mundane fighter accomplishes this

Allow me to explain:

From a minutia perspective, yes, the fighter cannot fly unassisted by magic or DM fiat. However, we are not playing a game of isolated challenges without any context.

I gave an answer as ridiculous as the challenge: to simply float in mid-air. The only reason you've come up with this challenge is to say that a caster can fly. But a fighter can do anything the caster can do while they're flying through mundane means. Like you said, it could be for scouting, intimidation, or having to grab something from above. But a fighter can scout, intimidate, or grab something without having to cast a fly spell.

Magic is not meant to be this catch-all get-out-of-jail-free card. There are flaws to magic use.

Magic's primary use outside of combat is not to solve impossible problems, it's to solve problems quicker and more efficiently than through mundane means. At the expense of combat ability.

Flying is an advantage in scouting except you can be easily seen. It also means anything that hits you threatens your concentration and you could start plummeting to your 20d6 fall or waste another spell gently floating down just to be constantly being attacked anyways. You can't fly and be invisible without an external item or spellcaster, so if you're flying, you're going to be noticed.

Again, magic is useful. But whatever you're trying to accomplish with it can be done through mundane means.

 

[Minigiant]

never said it was for combat. Could be for scouting, intimidation, having to grab something floating up there. A 1000 reasons. So I would like to know how the mundane fighter accomplishes this

TBH, that's more an answer to "why do rangers should have magic?" than "how do fighters deal with flyers?"

Traditionally,the high level D&D fighter wears a magic item or has a spell casted on them to fight a flying enemy. In combat, you need to be able to fly,be able to fight, and be able to survive. So it tends tobe a team effort or require a magic item or boon.

For exploration, it's not so complex and such things are handled by classes that spcialize in high level exploration. The fighter can goinseveral directions. The community is not 100% on board with high level exploration being a parth for the fighter. It's an option but not everyone agrees with it as the default.

 

[Stalker0]

Allow me to explain:

Magic's primary use outside of combat is not to solve impossible problems, it's to solve problems quicker and more efficiently than through mundane means. At the expense of combat ability.

At Lower levels I agree, but at higher levels magic is most certainly used to solve “impossible problems”...ones often caused by magic itself.

The BBEG is in a floating fortress...mundane flapping of your arms is not going to get you there.

The fighter is locked behind a wall of force...there is no mundane way to get out.

Now if high level wizards did not exist in dnd, then a more mundane approach might be possible. But they do...and so high level adventuring will also involve magical problems that cannot be dealt with by mundane means.

 

[Flamestrike]

ultimately the best approach is to buff the fighter

Yet all I ever see on here is threads arguing for houserules that nerf the fighter.

Critical fumbles, instant death from falling/ assassins, man-in-the-gym arguments, nerfing SS/ GWM/ PAM, etc etc.

There is no need to buff the Fighter. In games where the Fighter is 'weak' it's invariably due to the 5MWD being in effect.

My issue with the Fighter is his options are mostly 'I attack (rolls dice)'. It's boring and repetitive. I'd personally like to see a manoeuvre system (like ToB or SWSE Force powers) in play, with ALL classes gaining those manoeuvres (called spells in the case of casters).

Similar to 4E, but without Dailies (or having Dailies be more like at will Ritual effects that take time and are used out of combat). Everyone has either at-will powers/ manouvers/ spells (cantrips etc) and 'per encounter' manouvers. That way you also remove the 5MWD entirely, and can balance encounters soley around encounters (and not in the context of the 6-8 encounter/ 2 short rest AD).

A Wizard 5 would have (for example) 3 or so 'at -will' cantrips, and 3 'per encounter' spells (one 1st, one 2nd and one 3rd level) plus 'at will' Utility effects (ritual spells) that can be used at will (but take time, or have some other pre-condition attached like costly components, or a cooldown etc).

A Fighter 5 would have (for example) 3 or so 'at will' basic manoeuvres, 3 'per-encounter' manoeuvres (one 1st, one 2nd and one 3rd level) plus 'at will' Utility effects (Stunts?) that can be used at will (but take time, or have some other pre-condition attached like costly or rare components, or a cooldown etc).

Maybe you could even 'upcast' manouvers like how spells are done. A Fighter could activate 'Rapid Strike' and elect to spam it out his 3rd level 'slot' to make 3 attacks, instead of 2 (for a 2nd level slot) for example.

At the end of every encounter, there is a 'refresh' or second wing/ re-org where powers/ slots return, and HP of all combatants that were not reduced to 0, refresh to 50 percent.

Encounters can then be balanced within the context of the encounter itself, rather than in the context of the adventuring day.

Basically ToB for everyone with martial schools (steel wind, unarmed combat, zweihander, archery etc) granting manouvers of levels 1-9 and spell schools (evocation, abjuration etc) granting spells of levels 1-9. Everyone gets slots based off level (plus at will cantrips/ basic manouvers, and related utility effects/ stances) that refresh per encounter (based of character level and not class level), and can be used to spam manouvers or spells, and can be used to upcast.

If you want a Fighter that's more of a Warlord, take those Warlord manouvers (spells). If you want one that smashes things hard, take manoeuvres from Zweihander. High level manouvers from those 'schools' are epic (and are easily balanced against spells of that same level).

Once that's set up, include a method for recovery/ in encounter refresh (on a natural 20? When you spend inspiration? Take a level of exhaustion? Spend an 'action point'? Use an action to refresh a power? Something like that) and you're largely done.

 

[Asisreo]

At Lower levels I agree, but at higher levels magic is most certainly used to solve “impossible problems”...ones often caused by magic itself.

The BBEG is in a floating fortress...mundane flapping of your arms is not going to get you there.

The fighter is locked behind a wall of force...there is no mundane way to get out.

Now if high level wizards did not exist in dnd, then a more mundane approach might be possible. But they do...and so high level adventuring will also involve magical problems that cannot be dealt with by mundane means.

Again, these are all context-less challenges. Why do I even need to get to the BBEG? What's the purpose.

I can escape a wall of force through mundane means, it's called waiting.

Magical problems exist but there's always a mundane solution in actual games.

The problem is not to get into the BBEG's castle, it's to kill the BBEG. Rather than going into his home turf, you could convince him to come down and fight you.

Would that work? Who knows. There isn't any real adventuring context. We're just plopped in a empty void scenario like a bad tutorial level and expected to solve the problem using only one obvious method.

 

[The Mirrorball Man]

Again, these are all context-less challenges. Why do I even need to get to the BBEG? What's the purpose.

I can escape a wall of force through mundane means, it's called waiting.

Magical problems exist but there's always a mundane solution in actual games.

The problem is not to get into the BBEG's castle, it's to kill the BBEG. Rather than going into his home turf, you could convince him to come down and fight you.

Would that work? Who knows. There isn't any real adventuring context. We're just plopped in a empty void scenario like a bad tutorial level and expected to solve the problem using only one obvious method.

The problem is that, while BMX Bandit is trying to find a way to solve the problem through mundane means, Angel Summoner can just summon a horde of divine beings and deal with it in no time.

 

[TheSword]

The Angel summoner paid a price for that ability.

This is why I hate these white room comparing. it depends entirely on the setting.

Perseus could fly, he tamed Bellarophon and rode his back just like Harry Potter did in Order of the Phoenix and Venger did in the cartoon. Jack used beans to reach the giants castle. A smart person may get captured and taken back there. In Eberron the party hire an airship.

I agree, there is almost always a mundane (or at least quasi-mundane) solution.

 

[The Mirrorball Man]

The Angel summoner paid a price for that ability.

Yes. In D&D terms, he levelled up, just like BMX Bandit.

 

[TheSword]

Yes. In D&D terms, he levelled up, just like BMX Bandit.

And gave up toughness, strength/speed, essentially mundane combat. People act like combat doesn’t make a difference isn’t a massive part of the game. You may think your handful of high level spells are worth that... I would say it’s a tough call.

Incidentally D&d was always intended as a cooperative team game not a competition.

The 20th level fighter (champion) is effectively regenerating, attacking 4 times faster than a normal person when they aren’t trying, 8 times faster when they are; dealing a critical hit, approx twice every three rounds, fighting with any weapon, they’re also slamming their shield in front of enemy attacks to protect their friends, or tripping people with a glaive and stopping them in their tracks.

When the wizard turns into a dragon, the fighter hits it and it turns back into a wizard. The fighter feels fresh as a daisy and the wizard has lost their most powerful spell.