Level Up (A5E) What is the vision of the high level fighter?

[TheSword]

You're missing my point.

John Wick, King Arthur and Achilles are all high level fighters. They all are superhuman at the levels they exist in. They however are completely different interpretations of what a high level fight is. You cannot take a single class subclass combinaition and add some feats to replicate them. You need to fundamentally change how the fighter workss at high levels to create them.

John Wick is an action hero. He contains most of the fighter features you see in 5e.

King Arthur? Arthur's class features are an overpowered sword and a fantasy kingdom. He has a class feature that says "Choose a legendary or rare weapon in the DMG. You have it now. You can ignore any requirements to attune with it or use it. This ittem does not count against the number of items you can have attunement with."

Achilles is a Demigod with a magical buff on top of it. He can't be dropped except by critical hits.

Robin Hood's class features is trick shots and an actual gang.

And this is before you even bring up fighters from anime/manga/manhua.

There are so man ways to interpet a high level fighter. However the discussion is rarely had because no one but the designers and a few DMs are forces to stay in the discussion and not bail if stuff they don't like enter the discussion. There is no onus to state what a high level fighter is, state what actions they can do, and how they interact with a D&D world.

It's the same thing that happens when someone asks how your nonmagical ranger tracks a dragon or a teleporting demon. Only the design team is forced to answer.

Ahh, I think I can happily make a 20th level fighter that would be recognizable as John Wick, King Arthur, Robin Hood, or Achilles (Brad Pits version anyway). All using the champion subclass.

Having a magic sword or a gang doesn’t require a subclass or special rules.

These characters can kill people, very efficiently... and also found a nation or rob from the rich) I chose these characters because they represent different types of fighting style and weapon choice incidentally.

I’d add Matt Cauthorn and Perrin Aybarra for polearm mastery and GWM respectively.

 

[Minigiant]

Having a magic sword or a gang doesn’t require a subclass or special rules.

It does if that is your interpetation of a high level fighter.

John Wick focused on killing capacity after level 10.
King Arthur focused on his title and magic sword.
Robin Hood focused on his killing capacity and his title.
Archilles focused on his divinity and killing capacity.

King Arther is not high level unless you factor in Excalibur and Camelot. Arthur hunts a demon lord by having Merlin to his court, telling him to create a portal, then him and 6-12 fighters and paladins action surging and divine smiting the demon back to hell.

He's not dueling the BBEG alone. It's him, his squire, his 2-4 bodyguards, and his spellcaster follower.
That's different from John Wick who action surges and puts 8 holes in the BBEG's skull from 100 feet.
The different from Achilles who tanks all the BBEG's attacks on his chin, charges, and skewers him with a spear.

Achilles, King Arthur, and Robin Hood aren't Champion Fighters. What makes Arthur high level is his title. What makes Archilles high level is his divinity.

 

[Xeviat]

I don't like the idea of capping the Fighter at 10th, but the Subclasses should really offer more oomph at the higher levels. The base fighter needs something truly unique. Rerolling saves isn't good enough.

 

[Radaceus]

60 feet with a light source

 

[TheSword]

It does if that is your interpetation of a high level fighter.

John Wick focused on killing capacity after level 10.
King Arthur focused on his title and magic sword.
Robin Hood focused on his killing capacity and his title.
Archilles focused on his divinity and killing capacity.

King Arther is not high level unless you factor in Excalibur and Camelot. Arthur hunts a demon lord by having Merlin to his court, telling him to create a portal, then him and 6-12 fighters and paladins action surging and divine smiting the demon back to hell.

He's not dueling the BBEG alone. It's him, his squire, his 2-4 bodyguards, and his spellcaster follower.
That's different from John Wick who action surges and puts 8 holes in the BBEG's skull from 100 feet.
The different from Achilles who tanks all the BBEG's attacks on his chin, charges, and skewers him with a spear.

Achilles, King Arthur, and Robin Hood aren't Champion Fighters. What makes Arthur high level is his title. What makes Archilles high level is his divinity.

In your opinion. You’re entitled to that inspiration and interpretation. You can build your characters like that.

I don’t like it when class abilities are supposed to represent things that can be achieved by means outside the class... title, items, followers. These things are the preview of a reasonable DM not class abilities.

 

[FrogReaver]

Ahh, I think I can happily make a 20th level fighter that would be recognizable as John Wick, King Arthur, Robin Hood, or Achilles (Brad Pits version anyway). All using the champion subclass.

Having a magic sword or a gang doesn’t require a subclass or special rules.

These characters can kill people, very efficiently... and also found a nation or rob from the rich) I chose these characters because they represent different types of fighting style and weapon choice incidentally.

I’d add Matt Cauthorn and Perrin Aybarra for polearm mastery and GWM respectively.

Interestingly - I'd say each of those are about 5th level fighters. Give or take a few levels.

 

[FrogReaver]

In your opinion. You’re entitled to that inspiration and interpretation. You can build your characters like that.

I don’t like it when class abilities are supposed to represent things that can be achieved by means outside the class... title, items, followers. These things are the preview of a reasonable DM not class abilities.

So Wizards shouldn't learn any spells on level up? They should have to find them all?

Honestly it strikes me that giving Wizards out High level spells scrolls in treasure hordes in previous editions was treated as treasure on par with powerful magical swords and armorers... Just something to think about. Now they are essentially getting their magical items for free!

 

[Minigiant]

In your opinion. You’re entitled to that inspiration and interpretation. You can build your characters like that.

I don’t like it when class abilities are supposed to represent things that can be achieved by means outside the class... title, items, followers. These things are the preview of a reasonable DM not class abilities.

I get that.

But Arthur, Wick, Hood, and Achilles aren't on the same level of combat ability at all.

So either

1. Some of them are not high level
2. Some of them have outside aspects like followers, items, and boons that factor into their high levelness.

 

[TheSword]

So Wizards shouldn't learn any spells on level up? They should have to find them all?

It’s a fair point. I think spells on levelling for wizards is necessary in a world with sorcerers, warlocks, clerics and Druid’s. Otherwise it would create a massive imbalance and undermine the wizard class. It would also cramp the players style to have the DM picking which spells they know and which they don’t. Not having it also requires the DM to put a magical infrastructure in place of spell books and libraries which might not fit. We managed without spells on level up for a long time but I think it’s an exception worth making.

I don’t feel like this is the same as finding a magic sword, being made ruler of a keep, or gaining followers. All of which any character should be able to do with time, patience, role playing or luck.

This idea crystallized for me when playing
Adventures in Middle Earth. There is one subclass who’s ability is to convince an enemy to parley with you. The suggestion that you should make a subclasses main ability something that any reasonable DM would allow was extremely frustrating. There were other similar abilities for instance spy on an enemy for 10 rounds to learn a weakness. These things should not require a class ability!

It’s one of the reasons I’m glad the alternate class feature ranger isn’t about collecting food in the forest!

 

[TheSword]

I get that.

But Arthur, Wick, Hood, and Achilles aren't on the same level of combat ability at all.

So either

1. Some of them are not high level
2. Some of them have outside aspects like followers, items, and boons that factor into their high levelness.

1. Can I ask how you know they are not high level? Is that an assumption you have made or are you assuming their ‘level‘ is the lowest point you can have them do their thing. I’m not sure how you would make that assessment when attacks, AC, hps and healing are abstract concepts? Achilles might have 4 attacks and 200 hp or he might have 1 attack and 30 hp. They can both be representations of Achilles. My preference is that by the time he dies he’s the 200 hp one.

2. When you say these factor into their high levelness, how is this different to any other character class? High level characters do often possess magic items and followers currently without these things being baked in.