Level Up (A5E) What is the vision of the high level fighter?

[Minigiant]

I don’t feel like this is the same as finding a magic sword, being made ruler of a keep, or gaining followers. All of which any character should be able to do with time, patience, role playing or luck

The idea is that the Christmas Tree Fighter or Fighter Lord gets a bonus to that subsystem.

Can I ask how they are not high level? Is that an assumption you have made or are you assuming their ‘level‘ is the lowest point you can have them do their thing. I’m not sure how you would make that assessment when attacks, AC, hps and healing are abstract concepts? Achilles might have 4 attacks and 200 hp or he might have 1 attack and 30 hp. They can both be representations of Achilles. My preference is for the 200 hp one

Because I don't consider Arthur, Robin, Archilles, and Wick anywhere close in combat.

Given the same equipment, there is a clear hierarchy in power.

Just take the Illiad alone. Achilles, Menelaus and Odysseus are on different combat levels despite being all high level fighters.

When you say these factor into their high levelness, how is this different to any other character class? High level characters do often possess magic items and followers currently without these things being baked in.

Again it's a problem with interpretation. An assassin's Creed assassin, Naruto Kage, and a Batman villian are all high level rogues but judged on different merits.

You can't just snag people from different worlds who come with different interpretation of what epic is then smack them together with no changes.

Either you choice one aspect to judge all members of a class by OR you deem multiple aspects as the same and create different paths to display their epicness.

 

[FrogReaver]

It’s a fair point. I think spells on levelling for wizards is necessary in a world with sorcerers, warlocks, clerics and Druid’s. Otherwise it would create a massive imbalance and undermine the wizard class. It would also cramp the players style to have the DM picking which spells they know and which they don’t. Not having it also requires the DM to put a magical infrastructure in place of spell books and libraries which might not fit. We managed without spells on level up for a long time but I think it’s an exception worth making.

I don’t feel like this is the same as finding a magic sword, being made ruler of a keep, or gaining followers. All of which any character should be able to do with time, patience, role playing or luck.

Should any character be able to find and use a helm of teleportation? With time, patience, roleplaying and luck - I think the answer must be yes. That doesn't stop us from thinking of teleportation as a wizard ability and that's because wizards naturally get it on level up.

The only way the mundane has a chance of balance against the fantastical and supernatural is to get a huge leg up in mundane affairs. Which is to say - we can balance high level fighters with high level wizards - it just takes the high level fighter gaining a ton of mundane stuff that the wizard has to spend a ton of time, role playing, patience and luck to get.

 

[TheSword]

Again it's a problem with interpretation. An assassin's Creed assassin, Naruto Kage, and a Batman villian are all high level rogues but judged on different merits.

You can't just snag people from different worlds who come with different interpretation of what epic is then smack them together with no changes.

Either you choice one aspect to judge all members of a class by OR you deem multiple aspects as the same and create different paths to display their epicness.

Yes, yes we absolutely can do that. Because this is fiction and 5e is a flexible game that allows us to create different variations of the same class.

I judge a class by two things, does it contribute meaningfully to the party and does it allow me to create fun characters to play. Single class fighters absolutely can do this right up to high levels.

 

[FrogReaver]

Yes, yes we absolutely can do that. Because this is fiction and 5e is a flexible game that allows us to create different variations of the same class.

I judge a class by two things, does it contribute meaningfully to the party and does it allow me to create fun characters to play. Single class fighters absolutely can do this right up to high levels.

It feels like you are actively trying to either not get or avoid the point being made. It's a fair point and so I'll rephrase it to hopefully help:

No one equates the fighter abilities of John Wick, King Arthur, Robin Hood and Achilles to be anywhere near the same level. Since that's the case either a) they aren't all high level fighters or b) they are high level fighters because of something other than their fighting ability

 

[TheSword]

Should any character be able to find and use a helm of teleportation? With time, patience, roleplaying and luck - I think the answer must be yes. That doesn't stop us from thinking of teleportation as a wizard ability and that's because wizards naturally get it on level up.

The only way the mundane has a chance of balance against the fantastical and supernatural is to get a huge leg up in mundane affairs. Which is to say - we can balance high level fighters with high level wizards - it just takes the high level fighter gaining a ton of mundane stuff that the wizard has to spend a ton of time, role playing, patience and luck to get.

Not so, ancient portals, magic items, the will of the gods, planar confluences can all teleport.

Wizards don’t naturally get it, they have to select as one a limited number of choices of spells. It’s also a very high level spell of which the wizard can only cast 1. It used to be a given, but 5e has changed that substantially. The days of scry are long gone aren’t they?

 

[Minigiant]

Yes, yes we absolutely can do that. Because this is fiction and 5e is a flexible game that allows us to create different variations of the same class.

I judge a class by two things, does it contribute meaningfully to the party and does it allow me to create fun characters to play. Single class fighters absolutely can do this right up to high levels.

Dodging the premise.

Is King Arther a good a fighter as Achilles and John Wick?

If you say "Yes", then there is zero problems from this point.
But...
But if you say "No", they they either aren't on the same tier of play OR those "other aspects" are what put them on the same tier of play.

In my opinion, Achilles is a much better fighter than Arthur. So either Arthur isn't high level or his title and item makes him high level.

 

[TheSword]

It feels like you are actively trying to either not get or avoid the point being made. It's a fair point and so I'll rephrase it to hopefully help:

No one equates the fighter abilities of John Wick, King Arthur, Robin Hood and Achilles to be anywhere near the same level. Since that's the case either a) they aren't all high level fighters or b) they are high level fighters because of something other than their fighting ability

Please see my earlier point about how do you judge a fighting class is high level when attacks, AC and hp are abstract concepts.

 

[TheSword]

Dodging the premise.

Is King Arther a good a fighter as Achilles and John Wick?

If you say "Yes", then there is zero problems from this point.
But...
But if you say "No", they they either aren't on the same tier of play OR those "other aspects" are what put them on the same tier of play.

In my opinion, Achilles is a much better fighter than Arthur. So either Arthur isn't high level or his title and item makes him high level.

How can you possibly know that. They are both fictional characters (well our interpretation of Achilles is fictional) with many variations in their representation in literature, screen and media.

Trying to put them in a hierarchy is utterly futile. As futile as people who argue about which comic book character would beat the other.

[Edit] To be clear I’m not insisting these characters are high level. I’m saying they can be represented as such convincingly.

 

[FrogReaver]

Not so, ancient portals, magic items, the will of the gods, planar confluences can all teleport.

And now it feels you are just arguing to be arguing.

Wizards don’t naturally get it, they have to select as one a limited number of choices of spells. It’s also a very high level spell of which the wizard can only cast 1. It used to be a given, but 5e has changed that substantially. The days of scry are long gone aren’t they?

And now you are making a point in an attempt to minimize the impact of mine without actually saying anything about it. I'll say it again: Fighters can cast high level spells too provided they spend time roleplaying, have luck and patience. Why does this matter? Because you are saying if you can do something by another means then it shouldn't be a class feature. In that case take nearly every wizard spell away as most can be achieved via non-class feature means.

 

[FrogReaver]

Please see my earlier point about how do you judge a fighting class is high level when attacks, AC and hp are abstract concepts.

By looking at their opponents and how well they match up to them.