D&D 5E (2024) Class Tier List 1 Year Later.

[Horwath]

Statistically, chances are, there is going to be someone else with good charisma in the party. Frankly, sorcerers cannot be "S" tier so long as bards exist.

bards are little overtuned in spellcasting department.
full casting might be too much for bards.

I would give them 2/3rd spellcasting, spells from 1st to 7th level.
but make spell secret default in their spellcasting.
Bards can pick spells from any spell list.
versatility is payed by not having access to 8th and 9th level spells and slower spell progression;
new spell levels at bard levels: 1,4,7,10,13,16,19.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

I would give them 2/3rd spellcasting, spells from 1st to 7th level.

Sure, that's pretty much how they were in 2nd and 3rd edition.

 

[Mephista]

Sorcerer vs Wizard fight! Who wins?

The Warlock is sneaking up on them with the steel chair! Hits the wizard over the head and knocks them out! Then seduces the sorcerer and they go into the corner to sloppily make out. #charismaclasses

(joking aside, I think its clear that Zard values charisma skills over investigation skills, and the wizard's out of combat utility isn't very useful in his game. That swings things decidedly into Sorcerer's corner. YMMV).

 

[Zardnaar]

Hold Person is a) boring and b) generally sets up another party member to kill steal before you get chance to follow up with anything.

It's also on the spell list for Bard, Cleric and almost everyone else, so a good one for the sorcerer to skip to avoid duplication.

Most players don’t optimise to pick up spells from another class’s list.

Its a very powerful spells. Other classes cant twin it

 

[Zardnaar]

Sorcerer vs Wizard fight! Who wins?

The Warlock is sneaking up on them with the steel chair! Hits the wizard over the head and knocks them out! Then seduces the sorcerer and they go into the corner to sloppily make out. #charismaclasses

(joking aside, I think its clear that Zard values charisma skills over investigation skills, and the wizard's out of combat utility isn't very useful in his game. That swings things decidedly into Sorcerer's corner. YMMV).

Current game is a wizards MVP. No ones taken one.

1st magic item was a book. Lots of archwizard ruins.

I value it but not as much as say social as others can use skills in exploration mode.

 

[Zardnaar]

7th level now. Just got 4th level spells recently. Subtle and Careful metamagics. Careful has been quite useful, as noted. Subtle was vitally necessary at early levels, as I said to Mr. Farquhar earlier, and as I have actually seen opponent mages perform counterspell, it will be useful in the future if I want to make my spells immune to that. (There may also be some need in the future to cast spells without others knowing I'm doing it.)

I don't bother with Twinned because 5.5e made it suck and severely reduced the spells it can be applied to, and Quickened is, as you say, stupidly inefficient early on. I forewent Heightened to start with because early on it is also terribly expensive for its effect (as in, it's literally all of your points for the day when you first get metamagic), since it only applies to one single target, not every target of the spell. If it affected all targets but cost 1+spell level, then I probably would've picked it up instead of Careful.

Your comment about twin sucking in 5.5 shows something. They made it cheaper to cast.

Dragon Sorcerers get command. Tgey buffed a lot of emanations.

At level 7 I ran Tears for Twilights Hollow. One of the boss fights was a devoured CR 13. Weak wisdom save.

Drop something like wall of fire or spirit guardians. They started throwing command at it. Approach. Flee, halt etc.

Well one player did tgat the rest joined in. Glamour Bard, light cleric lots of commands to go around.

Starts twinning it.

Someone paralyzed bhaalists. Dragon Sorcerer gets in close and bounces chromatic orb. Two auto crits plus 1 more and hits 3 others for 48d8 damage total no save lvl 4 slot.

Games changed. Ive seen divine intervention used on prayer of healing. Party had a warlock, fighter, and monk.

Wizard didnt benefit much from new toys. Emanations, command buffs, metamagic, enanations, new druid spells etc.

 

[Blue]

The party only needs one face, and sorcerers are competing with paladins and warlocks for that role. And if there is a bard they may as well go home.

Played strictly mechanically, you're correct.

But I know I enjoy roleplaying. My character will often speak up in discussions because they have something to say. Even if the maximal optimal strategy is for everyone else in the party to disengage from the conversation and allow the single character with good charisma and social skills to be the only one to interact.

So I often find the DM calling for social-based checks from my character, regardless if there happens to be another character who also could be the party face.

So from a strict optimization perspective you're correct, you only need one face. From a roleplaying perspective however there's more than just need.

 

[Mephista]

Current game is a wizards MBP. Ni ones taken one.

1st magic item was a book. Lots of archwizard ruins.

I value it but not as much as say social as others can use skills in exploration mode.

Books/scrolls as items and archwizard ruins aren't actually as valuable as some people make them out to be - that doesn't make it a great game for a wizard. Depending on what's in it, those books might be worthless. In fact, many people already consider the 2 spells learned per level to be a lot.

What makes wizards good is the sheer number of spells (and spell scrolls) they can prep for various situations, have a ton of spell slots to use them compared to other casters, and the ability to ritual cast some great spells. That also means they need the time to use a short rest to ritual cast or to rearrange their spell lists.

In the right game, that's invaluable. Just as, in the wrong game, social skills are worthless. Those are both highly table dependent. In some games I've played, for instance, Arcana and Investigation were both critical skills, because they are tied to more complex dungeon traps, depending if its magical or mundane in nature. However, we practically never rolled social skills.

 

[Zardnaar]

Books/scrolls as items and archwizard ruins aren't actually as valuable as some people make them out to be - that doesn't make it a great game for a wizard. Depending on what's in it, those books might be worthless. In fact, many people already consider the 2 spells learned per level to be a lot.

What makes wizards good is the sheer number of spells (and spell scrolls) they can prep for various situations, have a ton of spell slots to use them compared to other casters, and the ability to ritual cast some great spells. That also means they need the time to use a short rest to ritual cast or to rearrange their spell lists.

In the right game, that's invaluable. Just as, in the wrong game, social skills are worthless. Those are both highly table dependent. In some games I've played, for instance, Arcana and Investigation were both critical skills, because they are tied to more complex dungeon traps, depending if its magical or mundane in nature. However, we practically never rolled social skills.

Aware. Im also using bastions, time limit isn't hard one and theres vendors selling scrolls and NPCs to learn spells from.

This campaign us a lot more exploration based. Stornlands snd Southern Anauroch.

 

[Mephista]

I'm not really sure why the campaign being exploration based matters to the discussion if you're not having any wizard PCs in it. If no one felt like playing a wizard, does it matter? How's the rolls lookin' like? Do you have no Intelligence checks?