D&D General (Anecdotal) conversations with Asian gamers on some problems they currently face in the D&D world of RPG gaming

[Bedrockgames]

No, but I do believe some parts of that artistic vision sometimes need to be adjusted in order for wider market appeal. I think that is entirely reasonable. The reason you did not persuade me, is because you immediately went to an unrealistic fantasy scenario where WOTC must bow before fanatical religious groups. I think you should root your argument in reality.

How is this unrealistic? TSR bowed to fanatical religious groups in the 80s (you conceded this in another post). Why is today any different? And I wasn't limiting it to religious groups. I included people who are simply politically right wing.

 

[LuisCarlos17f]

WotC can allow itself some titles "for only mature readers" as "limited editions for collectors".

I suggest as trick to avoid complains about cultural apropiation licencing or coproductions with authors and companies from other countries. I don't remember anybody complain about Disney's Mulan or Aladdin, or Kamigawa set by Magic: the Gathering. Who matters about Japanese roots by Transformers and Power Rangers, now two Hasbro IPs?

I don't imagine OA in 2021, but maybe something in Unearthed Arcana in 2022.

Today the strategy is to be teen-friendly, but Ravenloft will not be too adult, but subtlely.

Whos is complaining about OA books being created and published by 3PPs in DM Guild?



* The island of Sina Una is a setting based into Philipino folklore, and The Koryo Hall of Adventures inspired into Korean culture. WotC could agree some licencing with 3PP or comic publisher.

* Today we don't need a complete OP but only some PC races and monsters as "preview". WotC could publish in DM Guild some title about "monster from far realms". The PDFs are easier to be altered if they need some fix or change.

* I say again: WotC can show OA (or what-is-its-new-name) as an open door for Asian companies, publishers and authors to introduce their own IPs/franchises into Western market. And OA could be a magnet or hook to get new players from otaku community (please, now I don't matter at all about if otaku is a pejorative term or it isn't).

 

[Bedrockgames]

Because there are still people who hold the view that D&D is harmful, and those groups can no longer point their finger at a picture of Lucifer in a D&D book and use that for ammunition. Plus, I also think our hobby of fantasy roleplaying benefits from not dabbling in any real world religion. It should stay clear of real world beliefs in my view, in order to be firmly rooted in fantasy, and to be accessible to more people (such as Christians).

First off, if you want more Christians to play, including Christianity in the game would go much further than anything else toward making them comfortable with it (see my point below).

I just disagree with pretty much everything in this post. First, a picture of lucifer isn't harming anyone. It is an evocative image of a powerful figure in Christian lore. And while I am all for allowing fantasy that doesn't use or draw on real world religions, why should real world religion be off limits? I am Christian, I have no problem with people using demons in books, or including elements of the bible. Arguably that has a lot more potency than some analog would.

Part of the problem of appeasing every sensibility like this, is people come to expect it. One of the hardest parts of playing D&D for me, was the notion that multiple gods existed in the setting (and that the God of the bible did not). It offended my religious sensibilities*. But you know what? My religious sensibilities needed offending. That helped me grow. It forced me to think about something I hadn't considered before. Pablum doesn't do that.

*Edit: The same goes for Satanic imagery in games (and in music). These were things that made me deeply uncomfortable when I first encountered them, but that forced me to think.

 

[Imaculata]

First off, if you want more Christians to play, including Christianity in the game would go much further than anything else toward making them comfortable with it (see my point below).

That is a slippery slope argument. If you include actual Christianity in the game, then you also need to include Muslims, Buddists, and their respective deities in the game... and then it no longer is a fantasy game is it? The game is better off staying well clear of any of that. Plus you are going to have a hard time getting Christians to agree on how they should be represented in the game. Not to make this into a religious discussion (which is off limits as per the rules of this forum), but I think you could see how one would run into a ton of trouble attempting to do this.

I just disagree with pretty much everything in this post. First, a picture of lucifer isn't harming anyone.

It is going to be off putting for A LOT of people.

why should real world religion be off limits? I am Christian

Are you Catholic? Protestant? Baptist? Mormon? Jehova's Witness? Reborn?

You are going to have a hard time getting any of these groups to agree on how Christianity should be depicted in D&D. This is why you should always keep real world religion out of your fantasy game. Just... don't do it. You're just going to end up offending more people than you appease.

I have no problem with people using demons in books, or including elements of the bible.

But plenty of people do, and they probably outnumber you.

One of the hardest parts of playing D&D for me, was the notion that multiple gods existed in the setting (and that the God of the bible did not). It offended my religious sensibilities. But you know what? My religious sensibilities needed offending. That helped me grow. It forced me to think about something I hadn't considered before. Pablum doesn't do that.

I don't think that mantra sells a lot of copies. Then again, wouldn't it be funny if they included your quote on the back of the DMG? Probably wouldn't be good for sales though.

* The island of Sina Una is a setting based into Philipino folklore, and The Koryo Hall of Adventures inspired into Korean culture. WotC could agree some licencing with 3PP or comic publisher.

This looks amazing!

Here is a link btw to the Sina Una indiegogo page, for those interested: Link

 

[Bedrockgames]

That is a slippery slope argument. If you include actual Christianity in the game, then you also need to include Muslims, Buddists, and their respective deities in the game... and then it no longer is a fantasy game is it? The game is better off staying well clear of any of that. Plus you are going to have a hard time getting Christians to agree on how they should be represented in the game. Not to make this into a religious discussion (which is off limits as per the rules of this forum), but I think you could see how one would run into a ton of trouble attempting to do this.

Am not making the case that we should include more christianity in D&D in order to attract Christian gamers. I am saying including it would attract more Christian gamers (because many Christians only engage media that has a Christian message or doesn't contradict Christian teachings).

 

[Bedrockgames]

You are going to have a hard time getting any of these groups to agree on how Christianity should be depicted in D&D. This is why you should always keep real world religion out of your fantasy game. Just... don't do it. You're just going to end up offending more people than you appease.

Or you can accept that it is never going to be perfect for anyone, but understand that including some spin on it, even if it is your own creative spin like the inclusion of demons were in 1E, it is going to be a lot more evocative and interesting. I am not saying Christian lore has to be in the book. I am saying I think the game lost something when it moved away from including real world religion and myth in a fun and exciting way.

 

[Bedrockgames]

But plenty of people do, and they probably outnumber you.

That doesn't make them right. It doesn't mean the game wouldn't be better if we included the things that upset them.

 

[Bedrockgames]

I don't think that mantra sells a lot of copies. Then again, wouldn't it be funny if they included your quote on the back of the DMG? Probably wouldn't be good for sales though.

It is about what kind of creative culture we want to live. I think it wouldn't have impacted sales so much some years ago. We are a lot more sensitive about these things today in my view (closer to how we were in the 80s maybe). But in the 90s and 00s, there was an opening up. What I see is a narrowing. And I don't think "good for sales" is a good argument for what kinds of parameters we should be placing on our art and creative works. I want to be working in an environment where people can explore drawing on real world religious themes for example or doing things that are not going to go over well with every religious sensibility.

 

[Bedrockgames]

It is going to be off putting for A LOT of people.

Including lucifer on covers has also helped lots of artists sell millions. I don't heeding the most vocal religious critiques of art is necessarily good for sales, and it certainly isn't good for art.

 

[Guest 6801328]

I think it's time for me to drop from this thread. Nobody is going to persuade anybody here, and I'm sick of seeing the same lame justifications and weak arguments.

The market will decide between a handful of bitter white guys who think they're defending Western culture, and a potential audience of billions.

If there are enough bitter white guys, I'm sure somebody will Kickstart some retro products for them.