D&D 5E Surprise and Sneak Attack

[shadowoflameth]

Except that you are specifically rolling to see if the character, not the player, is surprised.

Yes. The problem is that fast reflexes don't make you know that there is a threat to react to in the first place. The assassin makes a high stealth check but not a high initiative. Bummer. But if the target rolls a high initiative he still isn't aware of the threat which means that he can't move or act in that first round. there is no 'except regarding the rogue who you didn't see'. Therefore advantage on a target that hasn't acted yet should work. and because he isn't aware of what was to happen, the auto-crit should work. Otherwise rolling the stealth check and initiative is like rolling the stealth check with disadvantage because you lose an effect if you don't roll high on both. Is there errata on if this was intended?

 

[Hriston]

Yes. The problem is that fast reflexes don't make you know that there is a threat to react to in the first place. The assassin makes a high stealth check but not a high initiative. Bummer. But if the target rolls a high initiative he still isn't aware of the threat which means that he can't move or act in that first round. there is no 'except regarding the rogue who you didn't see'. Therefore advantage on a target that hasn't acted yet should work. and because he isn't aware of what was to happen, the auto-crit should work. Otherwise rolling the stealth check and initiative is like rolling the stealth check with disadvantage because you lose an effect if you don't roll high on both. Is there errata on if this was intended?

This mixes up becoming surprised and staying surprised. Becoming surprised is germane to noticing a threat before combat starts. Staying surprised is a function of your initiative. Being surprised isn’t the condition of not noticing a threat. It’s the consequence.

 

[the Jester]

I think the surprise rolls really show their weakness when a new combatant that nobody is aware of joins a battle a few rounds in. Let's say, for the sake of argument, an invisible and silent assassin joins a fight between Our Heroes (the pcs) and an oni and its ogre minions on round 3. I'm curious- how do y'all handle that? Insert a "surprise round" during which only the newcomer gets to act mid-combat? Just have it join the fight with no surprise? Something else?

EDITED to stipulate that the assassin is invisible and silent.

 

[Swarmkeeper]

I think the surprise rolls really show their weakness when a new combatant that nobody is aware of joins a battle a few rounds in. Let's say, for the sake of argument, an invisible and silent assassin joins a fight between Our Heroes (the pcs) and an oni and its ogre minions on round 3. I'm curious- how do y'all handle that? Insert a "surprise round" during which only the newcomer gets to act mid-combat? Just have it join the fight with no surprise? Something else?

EDITED to stipulate that the assassin is invisible and silent.

Mechanically, surprise is determined before initiative is rolled. Since the other combatants have already rolled initiative, there is no opportunity for the newcomer to gain the surprise mechanic.
Narratively, I'd say that, in the heat of battle, combatants are on high alert for danger and therefore cannot be surprised (at least not in the 5e definition-of-surprise sense).

The edge-case invisible, silent assassin showing up mid-battle would certainly get advantage on the attack (as they are invisible), but they aren't going to add any 3rd level Assassin Archetype Assassinate (or the Monster Manual Assassinate ability) bonus to the attack.

 

[Ovinomancer]

I think the surprise rolls really show their weakness when a new combatant that nobody is aware of joins a battle a few rounds in. Let's say, for the sake of argument, an invisible and silent assassin joins a fight between Our Heroes (the pcs) and an oni and its ogre minions on round 3. I'm curious- how do y'all handle that? Insert a "surprise round" during which only the newcomer gets to act mid-combat? Just have it join the fight with no surprise? Something else?

EDITED to stipulate that the assassin is invisible and silent.

A hidden and undetected combatant gains advantage. There is already a fight, so everyone's already looking out for threats as much as possible because "fight." The trick here is to separate "surprise" in the rules from "surprise" in natural language. This is an unfortunate instance where the rules did not use the nature language but created a bit of rules jargon. The natural language version of surprise is still well covered by the hidden attacker rules.

 

[shadowoflameth]

This mixes up becoming surprised and staying surprised. Becoming surprised is germane to noticing a threat before combat starts. Staying surprised is a function of your initiative. Being surprised isn’t the condition of not noticing a threat. It’s the consequence.

So (In the round when initiative is rolled), if you become surprised (as a consequence of not noticing the threat), you then cease to be 'staying surprised' on your initiative because you now perceive the threat after all? How did you become aware? You say that it causes not 'staying surprised'. Because your high initiative roll itself ends 'becoming surprised'? Effectively becoming another perception check? How does it do that?

 

[Ovinomancer]

So (In the round when initiative is rolled), if you become surprised (as a consequence of not noticing the threat), you then cease to be 'staying surprised' on your initiative because you now perceive the threat after all? How did you become aware? You say that it causes not 'staying surprised'. Because your high initiative roll itself ends 'becoming surprised'? Effectively becoming another perception check? How does it do that?

Think of it this way, Surprise (capital intended) in 5e models not even knowing a fight has started. It's a very specific thing, not just what we'd generally ascribe to surprise. That surprise is what is represented by advantage -- the surprise from having someone you didn't know was there (but you were still wary) attacking you from hiding, or the surprise you might feel when someone you're looking at suddenly lunges for you. The Surprise in 5e represents a very narrow condition, and one that does recreate itself once people are in a fight.

I mean, look at what Surprise does -- you don't act on your first initiative and can't react before that. That's it. Being Surprised doesn't even grant advantage. The confusion comes when we start talking about Surprise in reference to a class that has specific class features that leverage Surprise. But, it's important to note that this leverages that special status of Surprise, not surprise the natural language word. That you can do something surprising doesn't make it Surprise. And, outside of that class, the distinction between surprise (like hidden attacker) or Surprise is pretty minimal.

 

[shadowoflameth]

Think of it this way, Surprise (capital intended) in 5e models not even knowing a fight has started. It's a very specific thing, not just what we'd generally ascribe to surprise. That surprise is what is represented by advantage -- the surprise from having someone you didn't know was there (but you were still wary) attacking you from hiding, or the surprise you might feel when someone you're looking at suddenly lunges for you. The Surprise in 5e represents a very narrow condition, and one that does recreate itself once people are in a fight.

I mean, look at what Surprise does -- you don't act on your first initiative and can't react before that. That's it. Being Surprised doesn't even grant advantage. The confusion comes when we start talking about Surprise in reference to a class that has specific class features that leverage Surprise. But, it's important to note that this leverages that special status of Surprise, not surprise the natural language word. That you can do something surprising doesn't make it Surprise. And, outside of that class, the distinction between surprise (like hidden attacker) or Surprise is pretty minimal.

The PHB Pg. 189 which describes surprise does not support the idea that your turn coming up in initiative ends being surprised. The order of operations on that page is that the DM determines surprise by comparing any stealth checks to passive perception. Then positions are determined, then initiative is rolled by everyone (including the surprised creature(s)). Then characters take their turns in initiative order. If a creature is surprised, 'You cannot move or take an action on your first turn of the combat, and you can't take a reaction until that turn ends'. A member of a group can be surprised even if others aren't.

Then initiative is described and nothing in that description says that your turn coming up in initiative order ends surprise.

So, for the sake of an example, Our assassin; We look at the Assassinate class feature. Pg. 97 of the PHB. 'You have advantage on attack rolls against any creature that hasn't taken a turn in the combat yet. In addition, any hit you score against a creature that is surprised is a critical hit.' Our surprised guard rolled well on initiative but because he is surprised does not move or take actions on his turn. True, that doesn't mean his turn in initiative order didn't happen, he's still taken a turn, but this rogue, a hidden attacker (as defined on pg. 198) gets advantage against the guard because this rogue is a hidden attacker. The guard is also still surprised because nothing in play, or occurring on his turn has ended surprise. This assassin rolling 3 on initiative goes last in order, and attacks the still surprised target from hiding with advantage. He hits, and his hit is a critical hit because the target is still surprised.

 

[Hriston]

So (In the round when initiative is rolled), if you become surprised (as a consequence of not noticing the threat), you then cease to be 'staying surprised' on your initiative because you now perceive the threat after all? How did you become aware? You say that it causes not 'staying surprised'. Because your high initiative roll itself ends 'becoming surprised'? Effectively becoming another perception check? How does it do that?

No, you're still doing the thing I was trying to describe by pointing out the difference between becoming surprised and staying surprised. I think it might have been more clear to point out that being surprised is not the same thing as not noticing a threat, and that therefore ceasing to be surprised is not the same thing as noticing a threat. The only time noticing a threat is important with reference to surprise is before combat starts. If you didn't notice the threat before combat starts, then when combat starts, you begin combat surprised. After that, it doesn't matter when you notice the threat. You're already surprised, and the thing that tells us how quickly you recover and stop being surprised is your place in the initiative order.

To more fully address your post, I'm going to try answering two of your questions individually.

So (In the round when initiative is rolled), if you become surprised (as a consequence of not noticing the threat), you then cease to be 'staying surprised' on your initiative because you now perceive the threat after all?

No, you cease being surprised because you have recovered and adjusted to being in combat. Those with higher initiative recover more quickly.

How did you become aware?

You become aware that you are under attack when combat starts. That's actually what you find so surprising because you weren't expecting it. But this does not mean that you are aware of the location of your attacker. That was already decided by a Stealth/Perception contest which you lost. When your attacker's attack hits or misses, then you become aware of his/her location.

 

[shadowoflameth]

No, you're still doing the thing I was trying to describe by pointing out the difference between becoming surprised and staying surprised. I think it might have been more clear to point out that being surprised is not the same thing as not noticing a threat, and that therefore ceasing to be surprised is not the same thing as noticing a threat. The only time noticing a threat is important with reference to surprise is before combat starts. If you didn't notice the threat before combat starts, then when combat starts, you begin combat surprised. After that, it doesn't matter when you notice the threat. You're already surprised, and the thing that tells us how quickly you recover and stop being surprised is your place in the initiative order.

To more fully address your post, I'm going to try answering two of your questions individually.


No, you cease being surprised because you have recovered and adjusted to being in combat. Those with higher initiative recover more quickly.


The rule RAW doesn't support that. Being surprised is specifically described as not noticing a threat at the start of the encounter. 'Any character or monster that doesn't notice a threat is surprised at the start of the encounter. " Step 3 on Pg 189 of the PHB describes rolling initiative which comes after determining who is surprised. There is nothing on this page about surprise ending because your turn in order came up Including if your turn comes up before a hidden attacker.