D&D General For the Love of Greyhawk: Why People Still Fight to Preserve Greyhawk

[Aldarc]

Nebuchadnezzar begins as a villain and ends up a friend to the hero.

Between this and the earlier discussion on moral ambiguity, I kinda get the sense that your comparisons rarely skim the surface beyond the superficial similarities.

No, it predates the Bible, and forms one of the fundamental stories humans tell each other. The "Villain's Journey" to sit alongside the "Hero's Journey".

I'm acutely aware of this.

It's way older than comics, although it does often feature there.

I am suggesting that the more modern form and way of thinking about a redemption arc is more indebted to comic books than it is to biblical or other ancient literature.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

I am suggesting that the more modern form and way of thinking about a redemption arc is more indebted to comic books than it is to biblical or other ancient literature.

Thing with superhero comics is they are very American. They are much less influential on British or European writers like Moorcock, Pratchett and Sapkowski. If you find a redemption arc in their writings (and you do) then it is unlikely to have been inspired by superhero comics.

Between this and the earlier discussion on moral ambiguity, I kinda get the sense that your comparisons rarely skim the surface beyond the superficial similarities.

I think what you call superficial similarities I would call fundamental similarities. It's easy to be distracted by details and miss the underlying pattern.

 

[Aldarc]

Thing with superhero comics is they are very American. They are much less influential on British or European writers like Moorcock, Pratchett and Sapkowski. If you find a redemption arc in their writings (and you do) then it is unlikely to have been inspired by superhero comics.

I think what you call superficial similarities I would call fundamental similarities. It's easy to be distracted by details and miss the underlying pattern.

You accuse me of missing the underlying pattern by focusing on the details while doing the same above regarding superhero comics? Lol.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

You accuse me of missing the underlying pattern by focusing on the details while doing the same above regarding superhero comics? Lol.

Superhero comics is a detail. It's not significant, because redemption arcs are common in other forms of media (some of which are popular in Europe as well as the USA) as well. If you obsess over superhero comics you are missing the bigger picture.

 

[Aldarc]

Superhero comics is a detail. It's not significant, because redemption arcs are common in other forms of media (some of which are popular in Europe as well as the USA) as well. If you obsess over superhero comics you are missing the bigger picture.

I'm not obsessing over anything here. I'm merely noting that I think that the more contemporaneous understanding of the redemption arc is rooted in serials. This does not to exclude other influences or the bigger picture.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

I'm not obsessing over anything here. I'm merely noting that I think that the more contemporaneous understanding of the redemption arc is rooted in serials. This does not to exclude other influences or the bigger picture.

Now you are blaming Cornflakes?!

 

[pemerton]

I'm not any sort of Biblical scholar (I believe @Aldarc is) nor much of a critic. But I think Aldarc's point is that the contemporary notion of the "redemption arc" is about a personal journey or transformation of the character in question. It is an internal matter (though there may be external drivers or context). I think this is why Saul/Paul has been suggested as a Biblical example.

A change in allegiance or friendship is not, per se, an example of this sort of arc.

 

[Aldarc]

Now you are blaming Cornflakes?!

This is a telltale sign that this thread of the conversation is over.

So anyway... Greyhawk.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

I'm not any sort of Biblical scholar (I believe @Aldarc is) nor much of a critic. But I think Aldarc's point is that the contemporary notion of the "redemption arc" is about a personal journey or transformation of the character in question. It is an internal matter (though there may be external drivers or context). I think this is why Saul/Paul has been suggested as a Biblical example.

A change in allegiance or friendship is not, per se, an example of this sort of arc.

The journey of Nebuchadnezzar is almost identical to that of Saul of Tarsus. Both oppress God's chosen. Both are afflicted by God, Neb with madness, Saul with blindness. Both repent and seek absolution.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

This is a telltale sign that this thread of the conversation is over.

This is the telltale sign of a sense-of-humour bypass.