D&D 5E (2014) Moral Agency

[chipinoh]

Hello,

I'm preparing to play a Redemption Paladin, and I'd like to hear some opinions on how to determine if any given NPC/creature is capable of moral agency and thus able to be redeemed. Thanks in advance.

 

[DND_Reborn]

First, welcome to the forums and have a "like".

I've never played a Paladin, so I can't help you otherwise but I am sure someone can. Good luck!

 

[Swarmkeeper]

Ultimately, the DM is going to determine how successful the Redemption attempt might be based on the actions taken by the Paladin (and their party) and based upon the characteristics of the NPC/creature. I'd say there might be a few thresholds to cross before some creatures are truly redeemed. For instance, a goblin who throws down her weapon in response to the Paladin's persuasiveness may simply be interested in self-preservation. It will take a bit of a longer personal journey, perhaps with guidance from the Paladin, for her to truly be redeemed and give up her evil ways. Other creatures, such as demons, might have no chance at redemption. Unaligned, unintelligent beasts may not be capable of moral agency in the first place - there's nothing to redeem. At the end of the day (or during session 0, perhaps) it's really up to the DM and the table as to how they want to run things.

Interesting topic. Thanks for posting!

 

[Iry]

Everything can be redeemed, even devils and demons. But that almost never happens in the timespan a regular D&D game covers. Sure, you might have a few NPCs you check in with to see how their therapy and coping mechanisms are going, but the really big ones are going to be almost entirely in the hands of your DM.

The problem you face is how to meaningfully apply your attempts at redemption. That means putting them in touch with a willing mentor, or just telling them about resources that can help them escape their terrible circumstance.

Another problem you face is institutional violence. A goblin might be totally redeemable, but so programmed by his culture and kin that he tries to kill you even when you offer him mercy. Thats a tough one, because he's not evil by our metric. He doesn't like kicking puppies, but thinks he must because [reasons].

So pick your "battles" and accept that your party is going to kill most enemies. You only have screen time to redeem the big ones - a few major villains, and a few beloved NPCs at most. Know the local resources like shelters, mentors, etc to offer to NPCs. And make sure to share the spotlight.

 

[Cadence]

Something related came up in a big thread on Orcs awhile ago. Part of it seems to vary from world to world. Some DMs run evil humanoids as evil in the sense of the B/X edition from 1981 where monster types of Evil alignment (well, Chaotic back then) are irrevocably evil. Other DMs run things where all humanoids (or even other types of monsters) have free will and would thus be redeemable.

"Redeemers know that undead, demons, devils, and other supernatural threats can be inherently evil."

I would probably put most abberations on that list... but there is an example of a reformed beholder in the official product (Large Luigi).

 

[WayOfTheFourElements]

Everything can be redeemed, even devils and demons.

I believe that's up to the DM. It would certainly never happen in my game.

Another problem you face is institutional violence. A goblin might be totally redeemable, but so programmed by his culture and kin that he tries to kill you even when you offer him mercy. Thats a tough one, because he's not evil by our metric. He doesn't like kicking puppies, but thinks he must because [reasons].

Or goblins are evil buggers by nature who universally enjoy kicking, drowning, and setting fire to puppies. Depends on the DM.

So pick your "battles" and accept that your party is going to kill most enemies. You only have screen time to redeem the big ones - a few major villains, and a few beloved NPCs at most. Know the local resources like shelters, mentors, etc to offer to NPCs. And make sure to share the spotlight.

Why limit redemption? Why not play the idealistic paladin who knows that goblins, devils, and demons are evil to the core, but strive to redeem them anyway because it's the right thing to do? The ends never justify the means.

That's how I'd play it, anyway.

 

[Cadence]

Why limit redemption? Why not play the redemption paladin who knows that goblins, devils, and demons are evil to the core, but strive to redeem them anyway because it's the right thing to do? The ends never justify the means.

That's how I'd play it, anyway.

Challenge the powers that be to adjust the rules of the universe to be better, instead of just playing within them.

“Shall not the judge of all the earth do right?” - Gen 18:25

 

[Iry]

Why limit redemption? Why not play the idealistic paladin who knows that goblins, devils, and demons are evil to the core, but strive to redeem them anyway because it's the right thing to do? The ends never justify the means.

That's how I'd play it, anyway.

It's certainly possible to try, but it should be done in a way that respects the time of other players. If they are cool with it, then redeem all the things. But I've seen more than one table have 'the talk' with a redemption paladin player.

@Cadence has an amazing idea!

 

[WayOfTheFourElements]

Its certainly not necessary to limit redemption, but it should be done in a way that respects the time of other players. If they are cool with it, then redeem all the things. But I've seen more than one table have 'the talk' with a redemption paladin player.

Play with a group who enjoys the things you do. If nothing else, find/start a new group.

Or, better yet, settle the matter like men: Trial by Combat! (Either between characters, or just bust out the judo mats and crush skulls in the living room.)

 

[Iry]

Play with a group who enjoys the things you do. Else find/start a new group.

Very few groups enjoy everything you do to the full extent that you do. Cooperating despite reasonable differences is a good skill to have!