Level Up (A5E) Minor Advantage and Minor Disadvantage

[Stalker0]

This thread discusses the new Minor Advantage/Disadvantage mechanic. I'll be very curious to hear how people find the mechanic in play.

So to start off, how potent are these effects? A little math tells the story.


Minor Disadvantage: So in the 60-65% attack range that is commonly used in discussion, Minor Disadvantage is just a smidge under 10%.... so effectively its a -2 to attacks. The penalty at 50% normal attack, which drops you down to 37.5%...or a -2.5 penalty. And then at 40%, it drops us 15%, or -3. So in most combats you are looking at a -2 to -2.5 attack penalty, and I think a -2 is going to be common to be considered the "default penalty". The math gets a little weirder if an attack roll of 16+ is needed to hit something, but that is so rare in all but the most extreme encounters.

However, probably the biggest impact is that it halves the amount of crits you get...so crit focused characters will feel the sting the greatest.

Minor Advantage
At first glance, you might think that Minor Advantage and Minor Disadvantage are equal and opposite. But....its not quite that simple.

At 65%, you get an extra 16.25% bonus (just a bit above +3). At 50% its 12.5% (+2.5), and at 40% its 10% (+2). So I would actually say a +3 bonus is more the average. And of course, your crit chance nearly doubles.


Quick Summary: So on rough average:

1) Minor Disadvantage: -2 to attack rolls, half the crit chance.
2) Minor Advantage: +3 to attack rolls, double the crit chance.

For those who may be confused, the reason Minor Advantage is a greater bonus than Minor Disadvantage is a penalty is due to the normal attack ranges for characters. Because characters succeed on attacks more often than not...the advantage benefit grows a little stronger. Not so much that its night and day, but notable.

 

[Horwath]

There was a suggestion a few years back. I can't remember who came up with the idea,

but you rolled 2d20 and one dice was "primary" and half the time it was that value that was used, but if you roll both odd or both even numbers on the 2d20 you would use higher/lower number for advantage/disadvantage.

 

[Morrus]

We (by which I mean Paul Hughes) did a bunch of maths on this. "Advantage 5" on this graph is minor advantage (because we trialled numbers other than five also).

 

[RangerWickett]

The math doesn't really worry me. I'm mostly interested in seeing whether the effort required to actually do these dice rolls is easier or harder than the old way of giving a +2 or -2 bonus.

My hunch is that flat numeric bonuses are easier. 5e was smart to get away from having tons of bonus types like 3e, but I think it's feasible to have adv/disadv and to have +2/-2.

But I'm eager to hear people's playtest experience. I don't have any games coming up where real dice will be rolled to test it myself.

 

[Morrus]

the effort

I suspect that when you roll a bad die roll and realise you get a reroll, the first thing that springs to mind won't be an exhausted "oh my, that's so much hard work!" and more an excited "Woohoo! Reroll!"

But like you say, that's what playtests are for, I guess. We'll find out for sure!

My hunch is that flat numeric bonuses are easier.

And even if that were the case, 'easier' isn't the only metric here. It's only one factor among many. Otherwise, if our main goal was to make an easier game, we'd be getting rid of rules, rather than make a crunchier version of 5E. The question isn't if it's easier, it's is it too hard? And I suspect (hope!) that it is not.

 

[RangerWickett]

I suppose 'easier' isn't the right metric. It's more whether the relative efforts and time involvement of a numeric bonus vs an if-then reroll make one or the other produce a better play experience.

 

[tetrasodium]

The math doesn't really worry me. I'm mostly interested in seeing whether the effort required to actually do these dice rolls is easier or harder than the old way of giving a +2 or -2 bonus.

My hunch is that flat numeric bonuses are easier. 5e was smart to get away from having tons of bonus types like 3e, but I think it's feasible to have adv/disadv and to have +2/-2.

But I'm eager to hear people's playtest experience. I don't have any games coming up where real dice will be rolled to test it myself.

I'm inclined to agree but was hoping for (dis)advantage# where you add/subtract all the different sources & handle it accordingly when it first got described a while back. In my game I use proficiency dice dmg(263) & give magic items that set a floor on those dice like a magical widget that treats anything below a 3 on the proficiency die as a 3 when the player uses it for widgeting making them better at it without raising the ceiling so can use both.

 

[Morrus]

I suppose 'easier' isn't the right metric. It's more whether the relative efforts and time involvement of a numeric bonus vs an if-then reroll make one or the other produce a better play experience.

I can only speak for myself, but missing and then realising I can reroll feels like I'll be excited, while a +2 bonus feels boring. But that's very much just IMHO.

 

[TwoSix]

1) Minor Disadvantage: -2 to attack rolls, half the crit chance.
2) Minor Advantage: +3 to attack rolls, double the crit chance.

I'm not seeing that crit chance when I look at the math. I would anticipate the crit chance of M-Adv to be 6.25% (5% on the first die + 25% chance x 5% chance on the second die.) The crit chance for M-Disadv should drop by a factor of 4, to 1.25%.

 

[tetrasodium]

I can only speak for myself, but missing and then realising I can reroll feels like I'll be excited, while a +2 bonus feels boring. But that's very much just IMHO.

so move the bonus to the proficiency die You can see that low roll & be excited because your widget of awesome makes it a good one given the size of your proficiency die The benefit of "less than x = x" is that while bob is tallying up all his 1's & 2's or whatever so he can reroll them and add the results to the pool he's not rerolling is that every other player at the table isn't frustrated at how slow bob's turn always is.