D&D 5E Psionics in Tasha

[Crimson Longinus]

And this is a pizza:
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How about you try to explain how these mechanics need to be different to properly represent a psion and why that is? Then we might get somewhere.

 

[Maxperson]

Well perhaps it indeed would be thematically clearer. 5E design tends to be too thematically muddled for my liking, so I feel you. But I guess here it comes whether the design is optimal and whether you can make it work. Like sure, you might prefer to have a bespoke psion class, but if you want to play a 'psion' then can the new psionic sorcerer adequately do that if you choose the spells that support that theme? Like you don't have to take the spells that you feel don't fit the theme.

The answer is no. Even before I see any rules, being a Sorcerer makes it an arcane class and psionics are not arcane. Right off the bat that makes it fail. Second, these spells have verbal components and psionics don't have components. So from what I've seen so far it fails on that front as well.

Whether or not you think the execution is perfect, this book will indubitably make representing these sorts of characters easier. Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the passable.

I don't require perfect, but "passable" equates to mediocre and mediocre is not sufficient for anything I play. I want the rules to at least be decent to good

 

[Maxperson]

So why does magic work in Hell? Why does Mephistophleses make deals with wizards to have them perform arcane research in the 8th layer? After all, they are powerless and can't do magic, or understand whatever force is being used in the Nine Hells, since it can't be magic, because Mystra can't effect the Nine Hells, and Mystra according to you, is the source of all magical energy.

In fact, I watched a video on Spelljammer a few months ago. They specifically said that while traveling the Phlogiston, Divine magic doesn't work beyond 2nd level I think they mentioned. But Arcane magic does, because you could accidentally explode everything with a fire spell. How is this possible? We are far outside of the Realms of the Gods, to the point where their clerics are rendered powerless, so Mystra can't be providing Divine Magic.

Are there super-secret Magic Gods just floating between the worlds, in the place where Gods don't exist, providing Arcane magic to travelers, but not Divine?


Again, it makes far more sense that the Gods like Mystra simply provide a framework and filter to make using magic easier, but that Magic itself is more like air. In and around everything, flowing in and out of the environment. This also would explain how some creatures are innately magical, higher concentrations of magical energy in their bodies. Not blessings of the Goddess of Magic, which is what would have to happen, under your framework.

I think it's more along the lines of each prime plane/world has it's own magic source. Mystra is the one for Faerun, and not even the only one since Shar has the Dark Weave. The outer planes have their own sources and I doubt that source is a god.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

First, several people have defined it.

Not even remotely coherently.

We may have defined it differently, but we have defined what it means to us. Second, there are many things in real life that we can't define exactly, but know when we see it.

Right. So a blanket justification of irrationally hate anything they come up with, even if you fail to logically explain why.

Maybe we will be pleasantly surprised and these spells are NOT psionics at all and there will be real psionic rules in the book. However, if these spells are it, then they are not psionics. These spells have verbal components which makes them not psionics.

Ok, thank you, these we have a concrete thing: "psionics shouldn't use verbal (and can I infer any other?) components." Now I'm not sure how universally that requirement is agreed upon, but it is clear enough. So perhaps these psychic subclasses have rule that lets them eschew components? It could easily be a thing.

 

[Weiley31]

Does D&D lore cross editions? Or is that determined when the new edition publishes something on it?

Well I"ll admit that for Gnomes, I use their 4E history/version, 3.5 adventures or lore for various things, and a 2E mindset with the High Fantasy in 5E games.

As for the books, well they seem to do whatever it is they feel like doing. 4E changed the lore for a number of things that weren't in prior editions. So I guess it varies/depends on what WoTC wants to do.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

The answer is no. Even before I see any rules, being a Sorcerer makes it an arcane class and psionics are not arcane.

'Arcane' exists in the current edition as one fluff box about Forgotten Realms. It is exactly as much a thing than you want it to be. Furthermore there are divine soul sorcerers, which I certainly wouldn't classify as 'arcane' even though they're sorcerers.

 

[Maxperson]

Not even remotely coherently.

In your opinion, sure. In mine and many others who have been arguing our side of it, you are wrong.

Right. So a blanket justification of irrationally hate anything they come up with, even if you fail to logically explain why.

If this is what you have gathered, then it's no wonder you don't think we've defined it. You haven't understood anything at all. Nobody is irrationally hating this. It's very rational and has been explained to you many times. It's actually more irrational to fail to understand what we are saying at this point.

Ok, thank you, these we have a concrete thing: "psionics shouldn't use verbal (and can I infer any other?) components." Now I'm not sure how universally that requirement is agreed upon, but it is clear enough. So perhaps these psychic subclasses have rule that lets them eschew components? It could easily be a thing.

Dude. I've said multiple times that psionics are an internal power(not external like Sorcerers use) of the mind that does not use components at all. You've had that concrete thing for the vast majority of this thread. I've even supplied very strong evidence that WotC views it the same way, just as has every prior edition of D&D that has had psionics. Well, maybe not 4e. I don't know how 4e handled that.

Tasha's spells are probably more along the lines of the psionic sorcerer subclass we saw, where WotC said that these weren't psionic subclasses, but were rather normal arcane, divine, whatever classes that drew on some psionic power to alter their abilities a bit. What we are seeing isn't even psionics by WotC standards.

 

[Weiley31]

So, does anybody think the Psi-Knight and the Soulknife will be two of the subclasses, alongside Abarrent Mind/Pisonics Soul sorcerers? And if so, will they still have the Psi-Die mechanic or will they just have those parts of their set up removed/changed?

Like okay, I don't mind that if we just gets spells as Psionics as the most easy way of doing it, is to make spells like Magic Missile, do Psychic damage instead of Force.(Or basically Fireball become Snowball, which if Fireball that does Ice damage.)

But if Psionic Soul, Soulknife, and Psi-Knight used the Psi-Die, is it possible they could have one variant rule for Psionics involving the Psi-Die?

 

[Ovinomancer]

So, does anybody think the Psi-Knight and the Soulknife will be two of the subclasses, alongside Abarrent Mind/Pisonics Soul sorcerers? And if so, will they still have the Psi-Die mechanic or will they just have those parts of their set up removed/changed?

Like okay, I don't mind that if we just gets spells as Psionics as the most easy way of doing it, is to make spells like Magic Missile, do Psychic damage instead of Force.(Or basically Fireball become Snowball, which if Fireball that does Ice damage.)

But if Psionic Soul, Soulknife, and Psi-Knight used the Psi-Die, is it possible they could have one variant rule for Psionics involving the Psi-Die?

Pretty sure the psi-die didn't survive the last playtest -- it wasn't widely liked.

 

[Maxperson]

'Arcane' exists in the current edition as one fluff box about Forgotten Realms. It is exactly as much a thing than you want it to be. Furthermore there are divine soul sorcerers, which I certainly wouldn't classify as 'arcane' even though they're sorcerers.

If that's what you think, you need to re-read that box. It's not about the Realms. It's about how magic works in all of existence.