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5E Psionics in Tasha

It's not a spell, so fail. False Equivalences are false, no matter how often you repeat them.

Telekinesis is a spell, so therefore it cannot be a Psionic ability? How do you propose to have a Psion without Telekinesis, one of the most core and expected Psionic abilities?

Or will you have Telekinesis, called Telekinesis, work the exact same as Telekinesis....except this version has a sticker on it that says "100% not a spell"?


I already quoted it. It's magic, because RAW says it is. It isn't psionics, because it isn't listed as psionics like Mindflayer spellcasting is.

So, you literally only care about the tag "Psionic"

Because, to throw your own words back at you, "I mean, what did you think I was saying when I said, " For the record, I personally don't care if they do make it magic, so long as they don't try to make the powers into spells and/or have components be necessary."? "

So, it being Magic doesn't matter. You don't care if Psionics are magic. Saying the eyebeams are magic does not matter. The Mindflayer Psionics are also magic, by your own definitions.

They are also using spells.

The literal only difference is that one has the word Psionic on it.

Which, when they release "Psionic Spells" will mean that those are Psionics. Because it is listed as Psionics.

And you can't tell me it isn't, because that is the literal only difference you can point to at this point. What makes something Psionic is being called Psionic.



Yes, it does. The rule for Mindflayer "spells" is that they are psionics and their "spells" don't require components. Trying to compare an ability, which is not a spell to Mindflayer "spells" = fail. Apples don't become oranges no matter how much you want them to.[/QUOTE[

Oh, no components? Exactly like the rule for every other "Spell-Like Ability" in the game? A Pit Fiend's Fireball and Hold Person also don't require components.

Here, here is the exact text of both of them, plain as day.

[QUOTE] Innate Spellcasting: The pit fiend's spellcasting ability is Charisma (spell save DC 21). The pit fiend can innately cast the following spells, requiring no material components:

At will: detect magic, fireball

3/day each: hold monster, wall of fire

[QUOTE] Innate Spellcasting (Psionics). The mind flayer’s innate spellcasting ability is Intelligence (spell save DC 15). It can innately cast the following spells, requiring no components:

At will: detect thoughts, levitate

1/day each: dominate monster, plane shift (self only)
[/QUOTE]

The literal only difference in how those abilities work.... is nothing. They work using the exact same mechanics. They use a Spell Save Dc based off a stat. Neither requires components. Both list spells in the PHB. Both have at-will and X/Day spells.

The only difference is one says "Psionic". Which does not change the rules. Which does not make it any different from the Innate Spellcasting of the Pit Fiends, or any other creature that uses Innate Spellcasting. This is literally just someone selling you tap water in a fancy bottle, it isn't different, it just has a fancy label.


Sure, but spell telekinesis requires verbal and somatic components. Psionic telekinesis does not.

Well, not according to the rules. Because the rules only have one version of Telekinesis. And sometimes that spell does not require components, but according to you, it still isn't Psionic, it is still a spell.

We need that 10 cent label to convince you it is 1000% pure Psionic power.



Well, no. There are lots of possible differences. Psionics could be not-magic. Psionics could use a spell point system like 3e. Psionics could use an ability check system like 2e. Psionics could require the psionic die. And so on.


And the only version you have is innate spellcasting using the spell rules....

Which means that psionic spells are the only version in the game.

Seriously Max, you keep saying I'm comparing Apples to Oranges, but you are point to an Apple with a sticker that says Orange. And that does not an orange make.
 

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Do we know if the Psionic Dice is sticking around. That was a really cool mechanic that allowed a lot of stuff.


Why? That stuff was really cool and allowed for a lot of cool feat, spell and ability interactions.


On of the more chilling reports from the survey had people claiming it was "too difficult" of a new system. Which... I hope not. But, for whatever reason (whether people thought it would run out too early, or was too powerful or wasn't utilized properly) it surveyed badly and they indicated it may not make it through.

Now, we don't know this 100%, it is possible it survived, but it is highly unlikely.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
The literal only difference in how those abilities work.... is nothing. They work using the exact same mechanics. They use a Spell Save Dc based off a stat. Neither requires components. Both list spells in the PHB. Both have at-will and X/Day spells.

The only difference is one says "Psionic". Which does not change the rules. Which does not make it any different from the Innate Spellcasting of the Pit Fiends, or any other creature that uses Innate Spellcasting.

Pit Fiends require components for their innate spellcasting, but thanks for playing the, "I'm going to deliberately avoid seeing things." game again.

And the only version you have is innate spellcasting using the spell rules....

And of course the psionic innate spellcasting which doesn't use the exact spell rules, as it does not require components.
 

Sabathius42

Bree-Yark
So, how are we supposed to take psionic effects that already exist in the spell sub-system, make an entirely new sub-system, and make it feel different enough from magic, while also not unbalancing everything?That is the challenge. How do you make telekinesis different from telekinesis, while insisting that one is a wholly unique and new thing?
Ill restate my stab at it.

You create a susbsysyem called POWERS, and using existing spells and abilities already designed for the game you create new and interesting uses that are accessed by "psionics". This echos the power lists that monks and warlocks choose from that is native to their particular base class.

I will take Telekinesis as an example and use Control Water as a template for how it could be changed up. Telekinesis (the spell) already has a couple different uses listed in the text. You could separate those different use cases into different "power point" cost sub abilities or roll in different use cases to flesh out the power until one power choice provides a menu of different options at your disposal depending on how many points you want to spend on the use. This is exactly like the menu of choices Control Water offers, only instead of each choice being the same level of spell power in magnitude,the Power system allows one heading to have low to high powered options it allows.

Telekinesis
1pp: Slightly stronger mage armor effect but with concentration.
1pp: gain fly speed for 1 round (bonus action)
3pp: force choke power
5pp: move people around like the spell
Etc....

You make a set of these powers (12 or so) to represent the different common themes of psionics like telepathy, mind control, jedi powers, etc....

Now you have easily accomplished several things.
1. You have given a new base class a set of unique powers to play with that in combination allow different feels of psion.
2. You have connected the spell and the power TK in some way to each other to help build the fiction that while both are magic effects, they are distinct from each other.
3. You now have design space to build a base class psion detached from the baggage of the arcane casting sorcerer.
4. You didnt have to playtest 100 new things since you aren't reinventing the wheel, just mixing and matching themed abilities from various sources that already exist.
 

Sabathius42

Bree-Yark
A lot of people didn't like it. I think a lot of people thought it would go away too quickly, but the math didn't really support their fears.
I REALLY didn't like the idea that you could lose you class "schtick" with two unlucky rolls at the beginning of the day. If the lowest die crapping out instead of dropping had you take damage or make con save or be exhausted or something I'd have been OK with it as an interesting fresh idea.
 

EscherEnigma

Explorer
That's not the only difference between psionic magic and magical spells. Psionic magic does not require component use. Magical spells do.
I was responding to one of your posts where you literally pointed to fluff, and only fluff, as the distinction. Not rules. Not mechanics. Not components. 100% fluff.

And of course the psionic innate spellcasting which doesn't use the exact spell rules, as it does not require components.
Yeah, that's not actually part of the rules. Page 10 of the Monster Manual:
A monster that casts spells using only the power its mind has the psionics tag added to its Spellcasting or Innate Spellcasting special trait. This tag carries no special rules of its own, but other parts of the game might refer to it. A monster that has this tag typically doesn't require any components to cast its spells.
Emphasis is mine.
 

EscherEnigma

Explorer
I REALLY didn't like the idea that you could lose you class "schtick" with two unlucky rolls at the beginning of the day. If the lowest die crapping out instead of dropping had you take damage or make con save or be exhausted or something I'd have been OK with it as an interesting fresh idea.
Amusingly enough, that's part of what made it appeal to the hubby. He likes that kind of randomness, where a bad (or good) roll of the dice can change things up.

That said, at least in the options they showed a few months ago, you could 1/long rest use "psi replenishment" to reset your die. So that's at least four unlucky rolls at the beginning of the day.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Yeah, that's not actually part of the rules. Page 10 of the Monster Manual:

Emphasis is mine.
Someone should have let the writer know he was making an error. Go ahead and look up literally every psionic caster in the MM and then look up every non-psionic caster in the MM. I'll wait while you do. Then you can come back here and say how it's only the psionic spell casters that don't need components.

Then you can look at every incarnation of psionics in the UA and note how they all
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
I REALLY didn't like the idea that you could lose you class "schtick" with two unlucky rolls at the beginning of the day. If the lowest die crapping out instead of dropping had you take damage or make con save or be exhausted or something I'd have been OK with it as an interesting fresh idea.
This is what I meant by, "I think a lot of people thought it would go away too quickly, but the math didn't really support their fears." It took more than 2 unlucky rolls. It took 4 consecutive bad rolls to lose it quickly. Each of the classes that used the die got replenishment, which restored the die to full. So if two unlucky rolls got rid of it, then you just replenished and moved on. The odds were highly against you not getting a lot of use out of the ability. And once you hit a D8 at 5th level, it was even better.
 

I honestly don't mind if the Psioinics in 5E ends up being specific Talents, ala the one UA Psionics, that are specific to each different class. I liked the idea that it developed alongside your class and wasn't quite archetypes/subclasses. Psionics as spells are in unless they come up with a variant rule for those that prefer it that way.

And every time I look at Interface being mentioned, my mind keeps on thinking of Psi-Crystals.
 

Still laments the loss of the Psi-Talent Die.
I think the whole "Low Number good, High Number bad" threw a lot of longtime DND players off. Especially where getting a high roll was the end goal when rolling was concerned. I wish somebody on DMguilds would work an expansion on it.
 

Why? That stuff was really cool and allowed for a lot of cool feat, spell and ability interactions.
A lot of people thought that having an extra dice at the table, to keep track of, was too much. Also it promoted the idea of "Low Number good, High Number bad" which is something that most DND players aren't totally used to.
 

Pit Fiends require components for their innate spellcasting, but thanks for playing the, "I'm going to deliberately avoid seeing things." game again.

And of course the psionic innate spellcasting which doesn't use the exact spell rules, as it does not require components.

But even that isn't good enough, because pointing out other magical effects, that are Psionic themed, but do not require any components, still get said they aren't Psionic because they aren't called that. IE the Beholder's Telekinesis.

So, even if you point to not needing components as the only thing that makes Psionics Psionics, you need to have that and be called Psionics for you to agree it is Psionics.

Someone should have let the writer know he was making an error. Go ahead and look up literally every psionic caster in the MM and then look up every non-psionic caster in the MM. I'll wait while you do. Then you can come back here and say how it's only the psionic spell casters that don't need components.

Then you can look at every incarnation of psionics in the UA and note how they all

You realize that he was posting the one about "Psionics", right? It is right there in the text.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Ill restate my stab at it.

You create a susbsysyem called POWERS, and using existing spells and abilities already designed for the game you create new and interesting uses that are accessed by "psionics". This echos the power lists that monks and warlocks choose from that is native to their particular base class.

I will take Telekinesis as an example and use Control Water as a template for how it could be changed up. Telekinesis (the spell) already has a couple different uses listed in the text. You could separate those different use cases into different "power point" cost sub abilities or roll in different use cases to flesh out the power until one power choice provides a menu of different options at your disposal depending on how many points you want to spend on the use. This is exactly like the menu of choices Control Water offers, only instead of each choice being the same level of spell power in magnitude,the Power system allows one heading to have low to high powered options it allows.

Telekinesis
1pp: Slightly stronger mage armor effect but with concentration.
1pp: gain fly speed for 1 round (bonus action)
3pp: force choke power
5pp: move people around like the spell
Etc....

You make a set of these powers (12 or so) to represent the different common themes of psionics like telepathy, mind control, jedi powers, etc....

Now you have easily accomplished several things.
1. You have given a new base class a set of unique powers to play with that in combination allow different feels of psion.
2. You have connected the spell and the power TK in some way to each other to help build the fiction that while both are magic effects, they are distinct from each other.
3. You now have design space to build a base class psion detached from the baggage of the arcane casting sorcerer.
4. You didnt have to playtest 100 new things since you aren't reinventing the wheel, just mixing and matching themed abilities from various sources that already exist.

It seems like a decent idea, but that is basically the design of the Mystic. Which was rejected multiple times. so, it might be a good Fan Homebrew, but WoTC has been told repeatedly that is not the type of thing people want to see.

Also, what you have done, is basically just obfuscate the fact that they are spells and bundle them together. I know it feels different, but the end result is the same, which makes me wonder why you couldn't just use the Spell Point Variant and get the exact same feel from a spell and slot designed class.
 

It seems like a decent idea, but that is basically the design of the Mystic. Which was rejected multiple times. so, it might be a good Fan Homebrew, but WoTC has been told repeatedly that is not the type of thing people want to see.
Yeah but it’s like claiming that there’s no audience for Frank Zappa’s music because the general public thinks it’s too experimental. Psionics has always been a niche thing in D&D. You can come up with the mainstream version, but it’s an empty promise because, in so doing, you’re throwing away the things that make it popular among its fans. I don’t see why some people in this thread seem determined to convince everyone that the Coldplay version of psionics is the only version that makes sense. I’m not sure they understand the appeal at all.
 

@Maxperson

At the end of it, we seem to have come down to two points that define Psionics.

1) Has no Verbal, Somatic or Material components

2) It is called Psionics


And point two seems more important, because I can show you a magical effect, with no components involved, and you will say it is not Psionics because it does not have the Psionic label. And that creates a problem, because you are focused on two point that are not mechanical differences in most people's eyes.

We don't generally care if a monster needs or doesn't need components. It doesn't matter. And labels alone does not make a rule set. Which makes it so confusing that you are so adamant that that alone is all that is needed to be Psionics.
 

Aldarc

Legend
Yeah but it’s like claiming that there’s no audience for Frank Zappa’s music because the general public thinks it’s too experimental. Psionics has always been a niche thing in D&D. You can come up with the mainstream version, but it’s an empty promise because, in so doing, you’re throwing away the things that make it popular among its fans. I don’t see why some people in this thread seem determined to convince everyone that the Coldplay version of psionics is the only version that makes sense. I’m not sure they understand the appeal at all.
I would argue that the fantasy of psionics (albeit in various manifestations, no pun intended) are actually fairly prevalent in a lot of tabletop fantasy games. The idea of psionics as a problem, IMHO, has been mostly a uniquely D&D problem.
 

Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
Yeah but it’s like claiming that there’s no audience for Frank Zappa’s music because the general public thinks it’s too experimental. Psionics has always been a niche thing in D&D. You can come up with the mainstream version, but it’s an empty promise because, in so doing, you’re throwing away the things that make it popular among its fans. I don’t see why some people in this thread seem determined to convince everyone that the Coldplay version of psionics is the only version that makes sense. I’m not sure they understand the appeal at all.
To follow this analogy, Frank Zappa is a third party provider, making an indy product. Your ask is more akin to the industry as a whole featuring Frank Zappa as the signature release for a given month. The audience is there for the first, but not the second.
 

Yeah but it’s like claiming that there’s no audience for Frank Zappa’s music because the general public thinks it’s too experimental. Psionics has always been a niche thing in D&D. You can come up with the mainstream version, but it’s an empty promise because, in so doing, you’re throwing away the things that make it popular among its fans. I don’t see why some people in this thread seem determined to convince everyone that the Coldplay version of psionics is the only version that makes sense. I’m not sure they understand the appeal at all.

You misunderstood my point.

Make your homebrew version. It will be great.

But, that route is a route that was already rejected. Maybe it means that the version WoTC is going to release is a soulless empty shell that no one will like, but you can't expect them to go back and make something that they were told not enough people wanted.

To torture your metaphor, this is like calling up your Local Pop Radio Station and telling them that they should play Frank Zappa's music, even though they tried it in a test audience and were told that not enough people wanted that to take up that air time. It doesn't mean Zappa's music is bad, or that you shouldn't make your own play list, but it seems kind of bizzarre to say that the Radio Station is somehow wrong and should go against their own data.
 

To torture your metaphor, this is like calling up your Local Pop Radio Station and telling them that they should play Frank Zappa's music, even though they tried it in a test audience and were told that not enough people wanted that to take up that air time.
That’s a fair point but that’s why lots of pop radio stations have a late night AOR show: because they want to cater to the demand for niche music.
 

Sabathius42

Bree-Yark
But even that isn't good enough, because pointing out other magical effects, that are Psionic themed, but do not require any components, still get said they aren't Psionic because they aren't called that. IE the Beholder's Telekinesis.

So, even if you point to not needing components as the only thing that makes Psionics Psionics, you need to have that and be called Psionics for you to agree it is Psionics.



You realize that he was posting the one about "Psionics", right? It is right there in the text.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------




It seems like a decent idea, but that is basically the design of the Mystic. Which was rejected multiple times. so, it might be a good Fan Homebrew, but WoTC has been told repeatedly that is not the type of thing people want to see.

Also, what you have done, is basically just obfuscate the fact that they are spells and bundle them together. I know it feels different, but the end result is the same, which makes me wonder why you couldn't just use the Spell Point Variant and get the exact same feel from a spell and slot designed class.
My system isn't just moving around spells and calli Ng it something different because the different use cases are combinations of existing spells, class powers, race powers, item powers, and anything else appropriate that fits the POWER theme. It also includes some amount of new or modified existing content , just not 100% new or modified.

So if nothing else I've shown there COULD be a distinct feeling psionics system that isn't any more difficult mechanically than spellcasting and ki power use. You can argue about why that is all you like, but it's not like it would have been hard to come up with something more distinct than another sorcerer and some new spells.
 

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