TTRPG Settings: A Canny Valley of Playability?

[Snarf Zagyg]

I'm judging from the relative degree of support in early RPG magazines - especially White Dwarf, but Traveller also got support in Dragon.

Well, based upon both my recollection of Dragon Magazine as well as conventions and locally, Traveller (in the United States, which was the largest market) ... did not consider Traveller the second-biggest RPG.

I really don't think you should be asserting your anecdote as fact ("In the late 70s/early 80s, the second-biggest RPG after D&D was Traveller.") because you definitely can't source it, and I do not believe it is true.

 

[Cadence]

Well, based upon both my recollection of Dragon Magazine as well as conventions and locally, Traveller (in the United States, which was the largest market) ... did not consider Traveller the second-biggest RPG.

I really don't think you should be asserting your anecdote as fact ("In the late 70s/early 80s, the second-biggest RPG after D&D was Traveller.") because you definitely can't source it, and I do not believe it is true.

I would have guessed Traveller too (based mostly on Dragon and seeing books at hobby stores - D&D was the only one at local book and toy stores). Granted a very, very, very distant second. What do you think the second biggest RPG was in the late 70s early 80s?

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

I would have guessed Traveller too (based mostly on Dragon and seeing books at hobby stores - D&D was the only one at local book and toy stores). Granted a very, very, very distant second. What do you think the second biggest RPG was in the late 70s early 80s?

Great question! I really think this deserves its own thread, given that we would be discussing anecdotal experiences with a lack of sales figures.

But I would set it up with a few parameters; I don't think it is helpful to think of a single period of the late 70s to the early 80s.

In the light most favorable to the original statement, let's start the "late 70s" as being 1977, when Traveller was introduced, and the "early 80s" to be 1986.

In that period, I would say that there are three periods.

1977-1979 The beginning.
1980-1982 The expansion.
1983-1985 The pre-crash boom.

The next thing you'd have to do is to decide what "D&D" is. If you count all of the D&Ds as one thing (including OD&D, AD&D, B/X, and variant rules that could be incorporated including Arduin) you'd have one giant market comprising the vast majority of play; but if you begin to sub-divide it, then you'd begin to occupy almost all the spots on the "leaderboard."

Then, you'd have to worry about hybrid and homebrew, especially the farther back you go 1974-1979 was the primary time for homebrew and DIY games, not to mention hybrid wargame/RPGs.

With that in mind, I vaguely recall the late 70s having a number of briefly popular fad licensed RPGs, and there was a lot more interest in Chivalry & Sorcery as a variant to D&D than Traveller (which was not available where I was). The vast amount of coverage and play in "the beginning" went to Gamma World, which was promoted by TSR and readily available at local stores in the familiar box.

By the expansion, we are looking at early CoC and Champions as well as additional TSR offerings (Top Secret, Star Frontiers etc.) and the Star Trek rpgs and MERP.

The pre-crash boom brought Palladium, Paranoia, and a plethora of RPGs that don't start with P that I don't feel like listing, because there's a lot. I'm not even getting into the Steve Jackson games products, which dot the years listed and had decent distribution.

I don't consider my personal experience to be controlling; is it possible that, in one year (1977, for example), that if you removed all TSR products, Traveller was the second-best selling RPG? Sure, maybe, who knows? I wouldn't assert that as fact.


(I could add the appearances at major conventions as well, but conventions back then were much less .... major ... than they are today)

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

This is an excellent summation. But I think that sometimes it can also be that the closer we get to reality, it can also be discomforting in a way or psychologically more difficult for modern audiences to plug-in. For example, Hârn seems fairly niche, but it's incredibly detailed world that seeks to emulate a lot of European Middle Age history, albeit in a fictional non-Earth world. But there is a lot about actual history of the European Middle Ages that could almost seem alien to modern audiences, which is discussed in one of the blog posts that I posted.

Interesting.

Maybe it's a flip side of the same idea- it's the difficulty in immersion.

If you go too far away from what you know, you can't "just play" because your brain is always trying to translate. For example, if the world doesn't have normal rules for physics, or heat, or operates like Tenet, then it becomes increasingly hard to just play.

On the other hand, if the world is too accurate (a realistic depiction, or a ... I hate to use the word ... simulation of an actual period) then you have a similar problem with immersion. Instead of focusing on the play, you will be focused on "getting it right." It's really the same issue as the world being too alien.

Maybe?

 

[Cadence]

Great question! I really think this deserves its own thread, given that we would be discussing anecdotal experiences with a lack of sales figures.

But I would set it up with a few parameters; I don't think it is helpful to think of a single period of the late 70s to the early 80s.

In the light most favorable to the original statement, let's start the "late 70s" as being 1977, when Traveller was introduced, and the "early 80s" to be 1986.

In that period, I would say that there are three periods.

1977-1979 The beginning.
1980-1982 The expansion.
1983-1985 The pre-crash boom.

The next thing you'd have to do is to decide what "D&D" is. If you count all of the D&Ds as one thing (including OD&D, AD&D, B/X, and variant rules that could be incorporated including Arduin) you'd have one giant market comprising the vast majority of play; but if you begin to sub-divide it, then you'd begin to occupy almost all the spots on the "leaderboard."

Anecdotally, I would count OD&D, AD&D, and B/X as a single game for that time period. We played them all at the same table for a while so it feels odd not to. I'm betting a lot of campaigns started in OD&D or B/X got converted to AD&D too.

For a list of games by year: List of tabletop role-playing games - Wikipedia
Looking at that, I'm torn about whether all of 83-85 counts as early 80s, plenty of ones introduced then definitely got bigger than Traveller.
Villains and Vigilantes seems like the next biggest (after D&D and Traveller) to me, but I don't think it was as big.

 

[hawkeyefan]

This is an excellent summation. But I think that sometimes it can also be that the closer we get to reality, it can also be discomforting in a way or psychologically more difficult for modern audiences to plug-in. For example, Hârn seems fairly niche, but it's incredibly detailed world that seeks to emulate a lot of European Middle Age history, albeit in a fictional non-Earth world. But there is a lot about actual history of the European Middle Ages that could almost seem alien to modern audiences, which is discussed in one of the blog posts that I posted.

I think a lot of the time, there is a kind of smoothing of rough edges that takes place in regard to certain elements.

Look at something like A Song of Ice and Fire. Many of the main characters are all very young by modern standards.....ranging from pre-teen to mid-teen in age. Yet they're expected to do things like get married and pass legal judgment and lead men in battle and so on. To say nothing of how Danaerys is sold into marriage, and other similar elements.

The show made the decision to age them all up a bit, to make it a bit more palatable to our modern standards and expectations. Probably a wise move on their part. The book portrays such things in a way that is more accurate compared to the historical period and location it draws upon (the Wars of the Roses in late 15th century England), but I think that for the wider modern audience of the show combined with the shift in medium, they tried to align the ages of the younger characters with ones we'd find more acceptable. Otherwise, many viewers may have simply balked at the idea of children being in such situations.

I think there's plenty of room for heavy topics in RPGing. But I also think there is the flexibility with a fictional world to kind of approach these topics from a slightly different angle. So a setting like Dark Sun, let's say, can tackle the idea of slavery in a much more broad way than a game that was set in the colonial era of the US could do. Its presence in a Dark Sun game can also be dialed up or dialed down so to speak, without affecting the verisimilitude; the same couldn't really be said for the colonial US game.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

Anecdotally, I would count OD&D, AD&D, and B/X as a single game for that time period. We played them all at the same table for a while so it feels odd not to. I'm betting a lot of campaigns started in OD&D or B/X got converted to AD&D too.

For a list of games by year: List of tabletop role-playing games - Wikipedia
Looking at that, I'm torn about whether all of 83-85 counts as early 80s, plenty of ones introduced then definitely got bigger than Traveller.
Villains and Vigilantes seems like the next biggest (after D&D and Traveller) to me, but I don't think it was as big.

So to put a cap on this:

1. As you know, it's hard to overstate how big D&D was back then. It's why "D&D" was a synonym for roleplaying in general for most people. If you treat it separately, it would take up the top four spots (OD&D, AD&D, B/X, DIY variations, in some order). If you treat it as a monolith, then it's going to be "D&D, then other stuff."

2. As far as I know, there are no sales figures, which is why I was curious that someone would confidently assert something as fact. Was Traveller the number two selling game from 1977 through some period in the 80s? I doubt it, but maybe. But probably not. I certainly wouldn't say that is an indisputable fact- would you?

3. You're welcome to use a database of GenCon if you'd like to look at some comparative figure; either old scans of the convention flyers are a searchable databse here-

Blacklight

best50yearsingaming.com

From what I can see, this seems to match my occasionally faulty memory.

4. I think that there was a lot of regional variation; if you had a FLGS or (like a lot of places) had to deal with a Waldenbooks / B Dalton ... or KB Toys as your distributor, for example. People often tend to overrate their local community. I know that people played Traveller, but (for example) I can also state definitively that no one I know played either Traveller because no place carried it; instead, Gamma World was our go-to. Doesn't mean Traveller didn't exist. But as a general rule, I wouldn't say, "Gamma World was the second-biggest game from the 70s to the early 80s" because that would be nothing more than unsupported anecdotal assertion, especially given that there are no reliable sales figures from back then (which is a continuing source of annoyance for some of us!).

 

[Cadence]

4. I think that there was a lot of regional variation; if you had a FLGS or (like a lot of places) had to deal with a Waldenbooks / B Dalton ... or KB Toys as your distributor, for example. People often tend to overrate their local community. I know that people played Traveller, but (for example) I can also state definitively that no one I know played either Traveller because no place carried it; instead, Gamma World was our go-to. Doesn't mean Traveller didn't exist. But as a general rule, I wouldn't say, "Gamma World was the second-biggest game from the 70s to the early 80s" because that would be nothing more than unsupported anecdotal assertion, especially given that there are no reliable sales figures from back then (which is a continuing source of annoyance for some of us!).

I mean

I'm judging from the relative degree of support in early RPG magazines - especially White Dwarf, but Traveller also got support in Dragon.

feels like more than just local reminiscence. As an aside, Gamma World was our go to 2nd game in the neighborhood to.

3. You're welcome to use a database of GenCon if you'd like to look at some comparative figure; either old scans of the convention flyers are a searchable databse here-

Blacklight

best50yearsingaming.com

From what I can see, this seems to match my occasionally faulty memory.

So what came out 2nd? Was GenCon super TSR heavy back when it was in their home town and advertised in their products and magazines?

Wow, only 58 games and tournaments in 1980. How things have changed

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

feels like more than just local reminiscence. As an aside, Gamma World was our go to 2nd game in the neighborhood to.

Well, as I wrote before, that didn't match my memories; in addition (and unsurprisingly, given what Dragon Magazine is), Gamma World appeared in more Dragon Magazine issues (not to mention the StarQuestions ... of course, there was the later Ares section, but that wouldn't qualify for the time period). Outside of 20, 35, and 51 (Dragon 51 had a series of good articles) Traveller wasn't particularly well represented over any other game.

Again, though, this is the statement that I objected to:

"In the late 70s/early 80s, the second-biggest RPG after D&D was Traveller."

Either that is a factual assertion, or it isn't. AFAIK, it isn't. Moreover, it cannot be, since we don't have any sales figures.

Good?

So what came out 2nd? Was GenCon super TSR heavy back when it was in their home town and advertised in their products and magazines?

Wow, only 58 games and tournaments in 1980. How things have changed

First appearance was the 1980 convention, with a seminar on how to play and a single adventure. In 1981, they had the highest number until 1983, with three seminars (basic, advanced, ground combat) and one game.

In comparison, Gamma World was running multiple tournaments and adventures in 1979.

 

[Cadence]

In comparison, Gamma World was running multiple tournaments and adventures in 1979.

Did TSR actually run the convention back then?