Pathfinder 2E Regarding the complexity of Pathfinder 2

Campbell

Relaxed Intensity
I think crafting is basically bad by design. I also think crafting not being very good is a design decision I pretty much agree with for a game where you are supposed to be treasure motivated. I do think it is overly fiddly, but I support crafting not being very good.
 
Last edited:

log in or register to remove this ad

kenada

Legend
Supporter
I think crafting is basically bad by design. I also think crafting not being very good is a design decision I pretty much agree with for a game where you are supposed to be treasure motivated. I do think it is overly fiddly, but I support crafting not being very good.
Players like crafting. I think not having it in PF2 would have been a miss and even more fuel for the “PF2 is too much like 4e” fire.
 

Players like crafting. I think not having it in PF2 would have been a miss and even more fuel for the “PF2 is too much like 4e” fire.
Crafting magic items in 4e DnD was stupidly easy - one ritual and you're a walking magic item shop. This is not one of the strong points of 4e.

On the other hand, going the 5e route and making it a quest plot rather than a character ability would also not fit the Pathfinder tone. You should be able to build a character who crafts things, and because you built the character that way you are able to craft things, not ask the dm for a questline.

So overall I'd say they aimed at the right target. I'm not going to say they hot said target very well - it is an overly fiddly system. But the goal for said system was in-line with the rest of the game.
 

kenada

Legend
Supporter
Crafting magic items in 4e DnD was stupidly easy - one ritual and you're a walking magic item shop. This is not one of the strong points of 4e.
I’d forgotten about Enchant Magic Item. There wasn’t a craft skill or crafting subsystem though, so I think my point still works.

So overall I'd say they aimed at the right target. I'm not going to say they hot said target very well - it is an overly fiddly system. But the goal for said system was in-line with the rest of the game.
Pretty much this.
 

I think this was on purpose: crafting shouldn't result in greater income than other Earn Income options. If crafting paid more/was more profitable, all the other choices become trap options. It's not better because they don't want it to be better.

I will not be arguing that it isn't overly fiddly, but the fact that it doesn't do what is was specifically design to not do isn't a sign of bad design.

What if I put a few feats into improving that aspect of my character? And get a magic item or two that powers up my crafting power? Can I make more money then?
 

CapnZapp

Legend
What if I put a few feats into improving that aspect of my character? And get a magic item or two that powers up my crafting power? Can I make more money then?
No, there are no such feats or items. You can obviously spend skill increases and feat choices to reach your potential (for your level), but PF2 has pretty comprehensively made it impossible to "get ahead of the curve".

I hope you see the philosophical difference: All a maximum focus on Crafting does is give your best chance of making money according to the Earn Income table, but never more money than that.

In other words, a similar focus on another skill nets you exactly the same amount of cash. The chief difference is that almost no alternative approach to Earn Income is as assured, meaning that if the GM tells you there simply is no way to find a level 16 Acrobatics task in Hicksville, you will make less money than your maximum potential for level 16. In contrast, even in Hicksville you are a level 16 character so you can still craft at level 16 = making monetary progress toward your items per a level 16 Earn Income task.

So Crafting can make you earn more money than a character without Crafting. But this is not the same thing as earning more money. You can't actually save any money, as in being able to afford better gear than other characters have the potential for.

You can only earn more money relative to other characters, and only if they have reduced opportunities. That is, if you are able to travel to an unrestricted settlement (Absalom perhaps) your friends can gain exactly as much money using Acrobatics or Performance or whatever as you can using Crafting. A level 16 Crafting Task is not one penny better than a level 16 Acrobatics Task.

Note that if you don't have many months of downtime, the actual cash generated here is very low compared to loot of your level, and the relative gains are still more trivial.

Crafting is still useful, don't get me wrong. (Field repairs and item manufacture in campaigns without magic shoppes come to mind)
 

CapnZapp

Legend
I think this post, more than anything, shows why you like PF2 and why I dislike it. (No judgment about people liking different things).

If a player’s background is that he was a blacksmith before adventuring, or that he is a priest of the god of blacksmiths, he should be really good at it. Maybe you’re better at building arms and equipment for you and your party (provided sufficient downtime). Great! That is what makes your character special.

Maybe another character’s schtick is that he is a sage. He’ll instead find something in his research that will be useful or interesting.

I find that the brewer, the performer and the blacksmith all make the same amount of money during two weeks’ of downtime (unless someone rolls a crit or fails) hurts verisimilitude more than the blacksmith outfitting the team if he has time to build stuff.

The whole question seems moot anyway. Most adventures that I have played or DMed have very little downtime, and even when there was downtime, the characters better things to do than practise a profession.
Good post.

I should say I can totally understand a desire to cut back on PF1 shenanigans.

That does not mean I excuse the resulting Crafting subsystem. However I look at it, I get the distinct feeling that its byzantine complexity that obscures its actual results is its only valuable quality.

And having a rule whose only valuable quality is to fool players into thinking it does something it actually does not do is... questionable at best.

The most constructive approach, I think, is "imagine an alternative system".

As soon as you realize all Paizo's design goals could have been achieved with a much simpler, faster and easier system you will conclude the printed Crafting system should not have been published in its current form.
 

CapnZapp

Legend
Except you can't normally earn income with those, and when you do, it's at a significant penalty. The comparable are Lore and Performance - both of which have fewer external uses than crafting.

If crafting makes more money that all the other options, all other options becomes trap options.

Well you're supposed to be adventuring... when you can pick between the two.

What is the correct amount of downtime between adventures?

"Not breaking the game" isn't the only goal. If it was, they'd remove all the fiddly bits like feats and magic. The goal is to make all the reasonable options (like not being a crafter) about even in overall output. If crafting is demonstrably better at earning income, then balance has not been achieved.

Now I think you're being disinginuous - you know full well they didn't set those as goals. They decided they were acceptable costs for making sure they achieved balance in downtime options.

Once again: "Not breaking the game" isn't the only goal.

It will mean my non-crafter character has 20% fewer consumables - is it worthwhile to ensure that every character feels the need to take crafting so they have 20% more hp in their reserve pool?

But they can purchase more stuff, which adds up.

And game balance.

If they could do that in a balanced way, I agree that would be better.

But I categorically reject the idea that "Crafting should be better than Lore skills." I want downtime options to be balanced against each other. And more low-level items adds up, so just capping the strongest item you can make is only halfway balancing - and being balanced half the time is not really balanced.
Sorry but I can't be bothered to intersperse my comments into your quotes. This block quote will have to do.

The facts are:
1) crafting is incredibly slow even in the best of circumstances
2) the difference between crafting and other Earn Income tasks is therefore trivial, even if we would agree on the relative earning power of various skills. But discussing that puts far too much emphasis on something that has so little impact, so I won't do that.

I posit that these very modest aims were accomplished only by an incredibly over-engineered subsystem. Something much faster and easier could have accomplished the same thing. Especially when said thing is very close to zero in every campaign without repeated months of downtime!

"They decided they were acceptable costs for making sure they achieved balance in downtime options."
And I assert that these costs are ridiculously high.

There are lots of elephants in this room, but possibly the largest one is that item pricing is so exponential that even significant gains would only enable you to purchase an item one level higher, tops!
Let's take a concrete example, stretching credulity into absurdity:
Conan and Valeria are level 11 adventurers, now stuck in Hicksville, population 20. They must remain there for a full year without any adventure in sight. They cannot simply leave, and there is no hope for these characters to find a bigger city. Conan impresses the villagers but still can't find more than level 1 Earn Income tasks. Even if we assume he critsucceeds his entire year, that's 3 sp a day, or 109,5 gold total. Valeria on the other hand is a Crafter and for some reason has access to everything she needs for a year of crafting. Assuming her rolls average out to the 8 gp listed for a level 11 Master, that's 2920 gold. That's twenty times as much! Valeria makes ~2800 more gold than Conan! Whee!

Except that a level 11 character is expected to find that amount in treasure (11500/4) just on that level alone! A level 11 item costs about 1200-1400 gold. And we reached these "heights" only by making entirely preposterous assumptions! (From where did Valeria get her supplies? Why couldn't C&V just move to a bigger city? Heck, why couldn't Conan spend his time vacuuming the countryside - even Hicksville must have problems with kobolds and giant rats and other level 1 appropriate critters, and even a single level's worth of loot is 175 gold, more than his entire year's toil! And why is the campaign expecting you to take a regular 9-5 job? A year's worth of downtime is in itself nothing wrong, but aren't there arcane mysteries to uncover or quests to be completed "out of frame" during this time?)

A much more reasonable assumption would be that there's one month's downtime, and that Conan can find a task half his level. Valeria's gains relative to Conan in this instance amounts to 8-2=6x30=180 gp. Which is pocket change at this level. Even if we were to go completely overboard (according to your viewpoint) and say that Valeria could actually make 25% more money than the potential for her level, that would still amount to only 125% of 8 gp or 10 gp a day, or 300 gp for this month. This would not unbalance anything. Valeria is still only halfway done crafting even a single item of her own level! Even in a campaign featuring many years of downtime, you would never be able to actually break anything. You can't purchase an item above your level per definition, and gaining 25% extra low-level loot makes close to zero difference in a game where low-level anything makes no difference.

In other words, all the talk of "we must avoid PF1 imbalance" is making a mountain of a molehill. It completely fails to take into account all the other checks and balances put into the system, and the integrity (so to speak) of the level-based challenge is not under threat.​

Next elephant:
"20% fewer consumables - is it worthwhile to ensure that every character feels the need to take crafting so they have 20% more hp in their reserve pool"
Consumables are vastly overpriced. Even if you were to spend all your looted money on healing potions, we're talking a pitiful amount. 20% more than a pitiful amount is correct, but still a pitiful amount. 20% of what Valeria just earned is 600 gold, which is enough for twelve Moderate Healing Potions, each giving back ~23 hp at a level where Valeria will have well in excess of 100 hit points. If she could craft a Major Healing Potion (which she can't) that would give ~47 healing which still is less than half her maximum. She's better off brewing level 1 potions and just drink them by the gallon, except she's even better off not bothering with consumable healing at all, and just take Medicine for her non-combat healing needs.

"I categorically reject the idea that "Crafting should be better than Lore skills."
I never said this. I was asking why something much simpler wouldn't accomplish the exact same goals, except possibly the "hide what Crafting actually does" one...
 
Last edited:

CapnZapp

Legend
You still can’t make money from crafting (except in a theoretical sense compared to your friends), but I’m fine with that. I think we’ll have to agree to disagree on that aspect.
Note I have never actually said that making absolute money is a requirement for my approval.

What I don't like is where lost of posters think Crafting lets you make absolute money, yet it actually doesn't.

I'm arguing the system isn't just needlessly complicated (and that it could easily have been replaced with something quicker), it's so very complicated it is demonstrably opaque and difficult to understand.

Let me illustrate:

Crafting. This skill lets you make Earn Income tasks at your own level, regardless of the settlement's nature. You can spend these savings on crafting items, and once you've reached half the purchase price of the item, you can spend the other half of the purchase price in gold, and have your item.​

The end.

How about that for a simpler Crafting rule, that literally fulfills your every need? Two sentences and everything is explained, and nothing is hidden.
 

CapnZapp

Legend
I think crafting is basically bad by design. I also think crafting not being very good is a design decision I pretty much agree with for a game where you are supposed to be treasure motivated. I do think it is overly fiddly, but I support crafting not being very good.
"Crafting is bad" can have (at least) two meanings:

a) the activity isn't especially impressive and rewarding for the characters
b) the rules for the activity aren't clear, intuitive or easy to use to the players

I don't have anything in particular against a)

Problem is instead b). Both in itself, and how b) obscures a).

Players like crafting. I think not having it in PF2 would have been a miss and even more fuel for the “PF2 is too much like 4e” fire.
Let's not kid ourselves - what players like is crafting making a difference.

I don't believe anyone supports having Crafting just to avoid criticism ("there's no crafting" "yes there is").
 

Remove ads

Top