A Question Of Agency?

Down a rabbit hole we go...

So, if my players go off in some random direction without asking me about it then that choice was not informed and thus they lack agency because I could just make up whatever and they wouldn't know any better. Sounds fair.

However, if they ask me to provide details about where they might go and I give them info about it, then they have agency because they are informed about the possible consequences of going there. Sounds fair, as long as the info I gave them is correct.

What if the info I give them comes from an in game source, such as an NPC, then later I decide that the NPC was lying and the info they got was wrong. Then I could make up whatever and they wouldn't know any better, but then does that mean they lack agency because of the fact that they made an informed choice based on an in game lie?
 

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macd21

Adventurer
Down a rabbit hole we go...

So, if my players go off in some random direction without asking me about it then that choice was not informed and thus they lack agency because I could just make up whatever and they wouldn't know any better. Sounds fair.

However, if they ask me to provide details about where they might go and I give them info about it, then they have agency because they are informed about the possible consequences of going there. Sounds fair, as long as the info I gave them is correct.

What if the info I give them comes from an in game source, such as an NPC, then later I decide that the NPC was lying and the info they got was wrong. Then I could make up whatever and they wouldn't know any better, but then does that mean they lack agency because of the fact that they made an informed choice based on an in game lie?

That's complicated, but yeah, you're probably denying them agency, especially if you decided that the NPC was lying after the fact. If, when the PCs were talking to the NPC, there was the possibility that they could detect that he was lying (and therefore infer that anything he told them was false, and make their decisions with that in mind), then they still have agency.

It all comes down to the players' ability to make meaningful choices that impact the game world. WIll their choice of direction actually make any difference? If it does, then they have agency. If it doesn't, then they don't.
 

Down a rabbit hole we go...

So, if my players go off in some random direction without asking me about it then that choice was not informed and thus they lack agency because I could just make up whatever and they wouldn't know any better. Sounds fair.

However, if they ask me to provide details about where they might go and I give them info about it, then they have agency because they are informed about the possible consequences of going there. Sounds fair, as long as the info I gave them is correct.

What if the info I give them comes from an in game source, such as an NPC, then later I decide that the NPC was lying and the info they got was wrong. Then I could make up whatever and they wouldn't know any better, but then does that mean they lack agency because of the fact that they made an informed choice based on an in game lie?
Yeah, maybe, but who cares? 🤷‍♀️

This is the sort of murky area between improvisation and illusionism I was trying to allude to. These sort of situations arise commonly unless you have everything preplanner and set in stone (and who has time for that?) I just think it is not worth worrying about. Yeah, sometimes some choices the characters make that the players think mattered end up not mattering. It's not a big deal, it is a part of how this works. And it is not like this happens to every choice they make. Some choices actually matter, some seem to matter but don't, some don't seem to matter but do and some choices matter in a different way than they seem to. It's all fine.
 
Last edited:

hawkeyefan

Legend
Down a rabbit hole we go...

So, if my players go off in some random direction without asking me about it then that choice was not informed and thus they lack agency because I could just make up whatever and they wouldn't know any better. Sounds fair.

However, if they ask me to provide details about where they might go and I give them info about it, then they have agency because they are informed about the possible consequences of going there. Sounds fair, as long as the info I gave them is correct.

What if the info I give them comes from an in game source, such as an NPC, then later I decide that the NPC was lying and the info they got was wrong. Then I could make up whatever and they wouldn't know any better, but then does that mean they lack agency because of the fact that they made an informed choice based on an in game lie?
I think that in situations like this, it’s up to the GM to know the players and their preferences and then shape the situation accordingly.

It would seem to me that if Agency or lack thereof is important to the players, then retroactively deciding that the info a NPC gave them is actually false seems a bit questionable. Typically, I think there would be some potential roll to detect the lie, or at least the opportunity to do so.

I think the GM has to give some thought as to why he’s proceeding this why. What is the point of having the NPC turn out to be a liar? Is it to maintain some control over the narrative? To force a desired outcome of the GM’s? If so, why? And while I’d never say you can’t have NPCs who lie to or otherwise betray the characters, I think you have to be careful of how often you do this and in what ways. The players may feel that nothing they’re told can be trusted, and then you’re veering into adversarial territory.

I think that ultimately, it’s situational. The GM has to decide if this is how he wants to run the game and how the players want it run. It’ll vary from group to group for sure. But I do think it’s good to examine these instances and learn from them.
 

Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
Down a rabbit hole we go...

So, if my players go off in some random direction without asking me about it then that choice was not informed and thus they lack agency because I could just make up whatever and they wouldn't know any better. Sounds fair.

However, if they ask me to provide details about where they might go and I give them info about it, then they have agency because they are informed about the possible consequences of going there. Sounds fair, as long as the info I gave them is correct.
So, there's a pretty big pea being hidden under this mattress, and that's the assumption that the player choice is uniformed. This almost never happens -- players are making a choice to go in a "random" direction not because they are actually random but usually because there's some other motive at play. Perhaps they don't like what's otherwise available, so the choice is on to not choose any of what's already up. Or, they're engaged in some level of metaplay where they think their thwarting a GM plan they don't want, or, maybe they are random. In each of these cases, though, the players are exerting their agency.

The kind of uninformed choice that's problematic isn't one where players make a choice without perfect information, but rather when the GM offers the players a choice without sufficient information. A T-intersection in a dungeon passage, for instance, is an uninformed choice if the GM hasn't provided any information about what on either path. Provided the GM has prepped the dungeon, the choice can matter, but it's a coin flip at the time of the choice. This doesn't engage agency because they players aren't actually making a choice, they're selecting a random outcome. If the GM does provide information, though, perhaps in foreshadowing or prior fiction (like a map), then this choice is fully engaged in agency.

Illusionism happens when the GM offers such a choice but both passages lead to the same thing -- and becomes worse if there's additional information that appears to make the choice an informed one.

Uniformed choices are about what information is available before or during the choice. Illusionism is about a forced outcome making the choice irrelevant.
What if the info I give them comes from an in game source, such as an NPC, then later I decide that the NPC was lying and the info they got was wrong. Then I could make up whatever and they wouldn't know any better, but then does that mean they lack agency because of the fact that they made an informed choice based on an in game lie?
This is engaging in Illusionism, and is denying agency. It's an interesting subvariant of Illusionism, because the decision to create the illusion of choice is after the fact. By deciding after the fact that the NPC is lying, you've negated any choices made during the encounter with the NPC and forced a specific outcome. The most important thing to do in either prepped or improved play is to honor established fiction. Do not introduce a change to established fiction unless it makes sense as a direct outcome of current play. In other words, you deciding as the GM that the NPC was lying is removing agency. The players discovering that the NPC had lied because they've suffered a failure on an important task that relied on the NPC's statement can work, though. Here, the NPC's truthfulness is a trusted fact, but the PCs have failed their task due to a bad roll or poor approach, then discovering that the reason their attempt failed was bad info can be a reasonable play. I'd be careful about using this, though, unless you're table is strongly rooted in play that directly challenges PC beliefs. It can result in bad feelings. I usually find it better to not engage in such things, as I'd rather my players not develop paranoid tendencies -- they're not fun for me.
 

Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
Yeah, maybe, but who cares? 🤷‍♀️

This is the sort of murky area between improvisation and illusionism I was trying to allude to. These sort of situations arise commonly unless you have everything preplanner and set in stone (and who has time for that?) I just think it is not worth worrying about. Yeah, sometimes some choices the characters make that the players think mattered end up not mattering. It's not a big deal, it is a part of how this works. And it is not like this happens to every choice they make. Some choices actually matter, some seem to matter but don't, some don't seem to matter but do and some choices matter in a different way than they seem to. It's all fine.
You still seem to be using Illusionism to describe uninformed choices, which are a different thing and can occur in any style of play. The continued comparing of Illusionism to improvisational play is unwarranted -- Illusionism is a type of GM Force, not of playstyle.
 

You still seem to be using Illusionism to describe uninformed choices, which are a different thing and can occur in any style of play. The continued comparing of Illusionism to improvisational play is unwarranted -- Illusionism is a type of GM Force, not of playstyle.
I was referring to the same situation which you literally described in your previous post thusly:

This is engaging in Illusionism, and is denying agency. It's an interesting subvariant of Illusionism, because the decision to create the illusion of choice is after the fact.

This sort of illusionism arises easily in improvised playstyle, where many things are left undefined until they're needed. It was not exactly defined that the NPC was originally trustworthy, it was merely defined that they said a thing. Their motivations for doing so were in quantum superposition, which only later collapsed to 'he was deceitful.'
 

Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
I was referring to the same situation which you literally described in your previous post thusly:
Ah, my bad, then. In my defense, this isn't entirely clear.

This sort of illusionism arises easily in improvised playstyle, where many things are left undefined until they're needed. It was not exactly defined that the NPC was originally trustworthy, it was merely defined that they said a thing. Their motivations for doing so were in quantum superposition, which only later collapsed to 'he was deceitful.'
I strongly disagree it has anything to do with style of play. Prep GMs can easily do the same thing. It isn't a function of improv but rather a function of a GM wanting to force an outcome. Assigning it as a common thing in improv is more a function of prejudice rather than a analysis. And , to be clear, it's 100% fine to not like improv games, especially if you had a bad experience with a GM abusing Force (I maintain some use of Force to be okay, depending on the game in question). Just don't generalized those experiences such that you start telling people their playstyle is so close to Illusionism that it makes no difference.
 

I strongly disagree it has anything to do with style of play. Prep GMs can easily do the same thing. It isn't a function of improv but rather a function of a GM wanting to force an outcome. Assigning it as a common thing in improv is more a function of prejudice rather than a analysis. And , to be clear, it's 100% fine to not like improv games, especially if you had a bad experience with a GM abusing Force (I maintain some use of Force to be okay, depending on the game in question). Just don't generalized those experiences such that you start telling people their playstyle is so close to Illusionism that it makes no difference.
It is not a judgement. I'm 100% fine with improvisation and illusionism. But as I said, the reason why such 'incidental illusionism' arises more easily in a game that relies heavily on improv is because less things are predefined. In a prep-heavy game the GM has planned the NPC's motivations before the PC even meet them, in an improv game they may remain undefined until there is some specific reason to examine them.
 

Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
It is not a judgement. I'm 100% fine with improvisation and illusionism. But as I said, the reason why such 'incidental illusionism' arises more easily in a game that relies heavily on improv is because less things are predefined. In a prep-heavy game the GM has planned the NPC's motivations before the PC even meet them, in an improv game they may remain undefined until there is some specific reason to examine them.
This rests on the conceit that a prep GM will be faithful to the established fiction while an improvisational GM will not be. That's the issue -- you're assigning virtue to one and denying it to the other.
 

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