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A Question Of Agency?

What I'm getting at, here, is that to the extent GMing is like writing fiction, a GM who has gotten far enough past his prep might be unintentionally taking the story where he wants it to go regardless of what the PCs do, the same way a novelist who doesn't outline or sketch ahead of where he is writing would. I'm not saying it's inevitable--or even necessarily likely; I'm just saying it's possible. I'm certainly not calling any game or playstyle a trap or a boondoggle.

I read you. I gathered that is what you were saying.

I'm asking you to outline the machinery of how you think that would work. This is why I brought up "cognitive trap" or "cognitive boondoggle." That depicts some machinery of how this might work for a GM (and I've seen something like this implied before). A GM (i) believes they aren't subordinating play to their will, but their lack of prep (ii) creates an inertia that leads to unconscious subordination of play (your proposed "victim of their own illusionism") because of (iii) properties x/y/z (however many) that is native to low prep systems/play.

What I'm asking you to do is describe this machinery in clear terms; (i), (ii), (iii) above. If you described it using the Blades example I laid out above, all the better. I can continuously draw up hypotheses and ask you "yes or no" until something hits, but it would be easier if you just explained it in a level of detail (a "premortem" of sorts).
 

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prabe

Tension, apprension, and dissension have begun
Supporter
I read you. I gathered that is what you were saying.

I'm asking you to outline the machinery of how you think that would work. This is why I brought up "cognitive trap" or "cognitive boondoggle." That depicts some machinery of how this might work for a GM (and I've seen something like this implied before). A GM (i) believes they aren't subordinating play to their will, but their lack of prep (ii) creates an inertia that leads to unconscious subordination of play (your proposed "victim of their own illusionism") because of (iii) properties x/y/z (however many) that is native to low prep systems/play.

What I'm asking you to do is describe this machinery in clear terms; (i), (ii), (iii) above. If you described it using the Blades example I laid out above, all the better. I can continuously draw up hypotheses and ask you "yes or no" until something hits, but it would be easier if you just explained it in a level of detail (a "premortem" of sorts).

So, guessing at the mechanism:

GM hasn't prepped (or even considered) what happens if the PCs don't do anything, so when PCs act in ways to change the fiction, the GM doesn't have a starting point. GM reacts to PCs' action/s with the first thing that comes to mind--doesn't consider multiple results/effects--and maybe eventually the story results of success start to look like the story results of failure. While I don't think there's anything particular about low/no-prep play that makes it inevitable, this particular path seems to require the GM to at least get outside of what they've prepped (which in a no-prep style means at the start of the session).

So if I'm GMing that above Blades scenario and the Whisper fails a Risky Attune Action Roll (the Whisper tries to reach into the Ghost Field to experience the last moments of life of a fresh, grisly corpse that was discovered just below the engineering deck of the Lightning Tower), leading to two ticks of the Critical Mass Racing Clock, leading to one of the two Complications I roughed out above. This moment of play becomes vulnerable to being a product of Illusionism because I'm thinking along the axes of thematic, interesting results (which hook into the constituent parts of play - the fiction of the Score to date, the gamestate of the two Racing Clocks, etc)? Is that perhaps what you're proposing? If so, is a GM that also incorporates uninteresting and/or thematically unprovocative Complications less vulnerable to this "you Illusionified yourself silly GM(!)" phenomenon you're depicting?

I think the GM in Blades is supposed to pick Complications that are relevant to the PCs. I think it's only something like Illusionism if the same result was going to happen no matter which PC failed what sort of check, which could be a matter of too much prep or the GM being in a bit of a rut.
 

You peeps have moved far beyond me. Suffice to say I have little motive to see the narrative move in a specific direction other than to stick to what I believe would be a logical outcome. If the players take me to happy places I'm happy to go there, if they take me dark places I will indulge them as long as everyone is comfortable with it. There are only twelve stories, or seven plots, or five stories, or four plots, so what does it matter where the story goes it's all a story that's already been told. Mostly I'm trying to make a fun experience for the players.
 

You peeps have moved far beyond me. Suffice to say I have little motive to see the narrative move in a specific direction other than to stick to what I believe would be a logical outcome. If the players take me to happy places I'm happy to go there, if they take me dark places I will indulge them as long as everyone is comfortable with it. There are only twelve stories, or seven plots, or five stories, or four plots, so what does it matter where the story goes it's all a story that's already been told. Mostly I'm trying to make a fun experience for the players.

I involved myself because a post went "beyond you (meaning your original post...though it was certainly related)." I don't post much anymore, rarely read the boards, but sometimes I'll read something that piques my interest and I'll throw some words at it.

As far as your lead post goes, "play to find out what happens" is a Vincent Baker-ism that has been around for a decade and a half +. His games are precisely how you depict your GMing ethos in the lead post; low prep and no metaplot (along with some other aspects). I've heard a lot of laments that this style of play inherently leads to either (a) shallow content or (b) incoherent narrative (I vehemently dispute this claim and do so with empirical backing...I'm confident the people making that claim don't have sufficient first-hand data to back it up) However, I have never heard someone make the claim that this sort of GMing can lead to a state of "GM Cognitive Blind Spot Ilusionism" (where the GM subordinates play to their will unknowingly and without intent). That is a very interesting bit of conjecture so I think entertaining a conversation on that is relevant to your initial ask (and certainly a curiosity to me).
 

Please by all means continue the discussion!

I kinda understand some of it I guess, alot of the specialized language everyone has been using is unfamiliar to me, but the examples make sense. I kinda think I might understand but I do not want to divert the thread by asking dumb questions.

So please, please, please, continue the discussion!!!
 

pemerton

Legend
The Leviathan Blood Manifold (whatever this is) on the floor above the PCs suffers a containment leak.
A side-comment on this, and relevant to the issue of prep: I think part of good framing is introducing story elements - like the Leviathan Blood Manifold - that are evocative, make sense in light of genre and established fiction, and not fully defined. This gives the players something to riff on. Even something as simply as a wizard's tower (in a fantasy game) or an enemy base (in a sci-fi game) can be the starting point for interesting action declarations.

Tying everything down in advance will produce a very different play experience. It doesn't have to negate player agency - everything in White Plume Mountain is pretty tied down, but the players can still manifest agency in making decisions about how to overcome the puzzles - but you're probably going to get more of a focus on engineering details and fewer Leviathan Blood Manifolds.

This also relates to @Tonguez's comment upthread about player-introduced story elements. In my 4e game, much of the detail about how magic works and what can be achieved using it was introduced by the player of the invoker/wizard. But not as overt "player narrative control" based on spending fate points (or whatever); rather, he would declare actions (typically in skill challenges) and as part of that would set out his theory of how magic worked and what his PC was trying to do with it - and if the action succeeded, then his theory is validated!

I think of that as an important manifestation of player agency.

my thinking about a GM railroading themself goes along with a GM being the victim of their own Illusionism (which I mentioned elsewhere in this thread). If you as GM are in a position where you don't even have the starting position prepped, you might well end up coming to the same place no matter what the PCs do, because you are trapped in your own brain and in the moment; I'm thinking sort of when a GM decides what an "interesting result" would be.
What I'm getting at, here, is that to the extent GMing is like writing fiction, a GM who has gotten far enough past his prep might be unintentionally taking the story where he wants it to go regardless of what the PCs do, the same way a novelist who doesn't outline or sketch ahead of where he is writing would. I'm not saying it's inevitable--or even necessarily likely; I'm just saying it's possible.
I don't really follow this. A novelist who writes without outlining or sketching ahead takes the story where s/he wants it to go. Presumably, though, a novelist who outlines or sketches ahead also takes the story where s/he wants it to go. Why would you write an outline or sketch that isn't what you want?

But in any event GMing isn't all that much like writing fiction, because - assuming player agency is manifested at the table - the GM is not the sole or even the primary author. The players, in declaring actions for their PCs and making it clear what they hope those actions to intend, play a key role in establishing the parameters of the subsequently-narrated fiction.

Just thinking through the games I've run over the past few years, most had no starting position prepped:

* Prince Valiant: the players created their PCs, we invented some backstory (two were father and son; the third had joined them on the road; all were on their way to a tournament); I looked through the books and chose a first episode; the game currently has the PCs crusading in Cyprus at the head of the holy order they founded, which is not where I (or, I think, they) anticipated things would end up;

* Classic Traveller: the players rolled up their PCs; I rolled a starting world; we invented some backstory to establish the nature of the world and explain why all the PCs were on it; I rolled a random patron on the patron encounter table; and we went from there into a bioweapons conspiracy; currently the PCs are on the other side of a galactic rift (following a misjump) investigating a 2 billion year old alien pyramid embedded in ice;

* Dark Sun 4e D&D: the players built their PCs; I told them we would be starting in Tyr after the revolution, and then asked them to write "kickers"; one of those kickers established that the revolution was in train at that very moment, and that it was taking place during a gladiatorial contest, and so this established the starting situation; this game has been on hiatus for quite a while now but it was heading in the direction of urban intrigue last time we played it;

* Cortex+ Heroic Fantasy Hack: I distributed the pre-gen PCs; the players opted to interpret them in Viking rather than Japanese terms (I'd designed them to suit either); we then established a starting situation, of the players being sent north to investigate omens of trouble among the spirits and the gods; their first attempt failed when most of the PCs got lost in a dungeon except for one who robbed the dark elves of their gold and returned back south for a while; with the signs of the Ragnarok becoming more evident, they are currently in the middle of a second attempt;

* Cortex+ Heroic LotR/MERP: the players chose their PCs from the pregens I'd prepared; we worked out why they were going to set out from Imladris; and then started playing (I'd prepared some material for a journey to Ost-in-Edhil, but the PCs headed north into Angmar because Gandalf's player explained that Gandalf had heard rumours of the recovery of a palantir in Forochel); the PCs ended up heading south in pursuit of the palantir (after they failed to stop Orcs from taking it), and currently they are in Moria after the dwarf PC led them back into the halls of his ancestors in order to escape the scrutiny of Crebain of Dunland;

I've also run Cthulhu Dark, Wuthering Heights and AD&D (the last using the Appendix A random dungeon generation process) with no starting position prepped. One Cthulhu Dark session ended up with the three PCs - a journalist, a longshoreman and a legal secretary - using a tugboat to crash a cargo ship onto rocks; in another one the PCs remained essentially strangers to one another but ended up helping thwart a colonial venture involving were-hyenas.

The only games I can think of in which there was a starting position prepped is The Dying Earth, where we used the example scenario in the book; and one session of Castle Amber (using AD&D mechanics).

I haven't experienced any connection between no-prep and "coming to the same place no matter what the PCs do". And I don't really see how that would even happen, for two reasons: first, if there is no prep then almost inevitably the players play a greater role in establishing the starting situation; and second, the players will declare actions for their PCs which produce consequences which in turn determine what "place" is arrived at.

I think I was more intending that the choices of the players setting things off on new branches that have not been predetermined by the GM. To use a metaphor, the PCs are blazing their own trail rather than following one of those set by the GM. As you point out, the system and the goals and methods of play will matter quite a bit in this regard.
This "blazing of their own trail" is, for me, the core of player agency in RPGing. It's why action declarations and their resolution are so fundamental. And it's why - if players are to exercise agency - there have to be limits on what can be determined via GM prep.

With regard to "system and methods of play", I'll reiterate an example I've mentioned in other threads: Classic Traveller generally is (in my view) a very robust system which reliably permits genuine and effective action resolution. That's not to say it's as tight as (say) Apocalypse World, but it's pretty good. With one exception: on-world exploration. There is no resolution framework for this beyond the GM decides where the <whatever it is you're looking for> is and how long it will take you to find it. There are rules for chances of vehicular malfunction per day, and for encounters, which are fine in themselves, but nothing analogous to a skill challenge or similar framework for actually finding things onworld.

Since I discovered this the hard way (ie during play!), I've handled all onworld exploration simply via free narration. Eg most recently, in order for the PCs to find their pyramid embedded in ice, the checks required were actually social checks (to find a sect and then persuade it to hand over certain occult drawings which were actually time-series tectonic maps). But the actual journeying took place in a spaceship and was resolved via free narration: there are simply no mechanics to support making it, in itself, a focus of play.

If someone is mostly used to systems that don't have robust action resolution (except perhaps for small-group combat), then I see how they might posit that prep is necessary as a curb on the GM, because otherwise the GM might come to the same place no matter what the PCs do. I don't know what systems @prabe is familiar with beyond D&D; but the only version of D&D that has robust action resolution of the sort I'm talking about, across a wide range of possible action declarations, is 4e. Classic D&D is robust for dungeon exploration, and semi-robust for hex crawls, but not for much beyond that; and 5e seems pretty similar to classic (ie AD&D, B/X, etc), to me at least.

But if the action resolution rules are robust, prep is not needed to curb the GM and - if it is prep of outcomes, or of "branches" - starts to risk becoming a curb on player agency.
 
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prabe

Tension, apprension, and dissension have begun
Supporter
I don't really follow this. A novelist who writes without outlining or sketching ahead takes the story where s/he wants it to go. Presumably, though, a novelist who outlines or sketches ahead also takes the story where s/he wants it to go. Why would you write an outline or sketch that isn't what you want?

But in any event GMing isn't all that much like writing fiction, because - assuming player agency is manifested at the table - the GM is not the sole or even the primary author. The players, in declaring actions for their PCs and making it clear what they hope those actions to intend, play a key role in establishing the parameters of the subsequently-narrated fiction.

I agree that GMing isn't much like writing fiction, but the writer who doesn't plan probably experiences the writing process as one of discovery, more so than the one working from an outline. I am not a particularly good example, here, but when I was writing fiction it never entirely felt as though I was in control of where the stories went, and I've seen interviews with more successful writers who seemed to have similar experiences. I think I'm a better GM than I was a writer, and I think the interaction/gestalt around the table is most of why.

Just thinking through the games I've run over the past few years, most had no starting position prepped:
{snip}

By "starting position" I meant a combination of "what happens if the PCs don't do anything" and "where the PCs are." It's part of framing the fiction, I think, and I think that a GM who isn't careful about framing the fiction can find himself in a position where all paths lead to the same place.
 

hawkeyefan

Legend
However, I have never heard someone make the claim that this sort of GMing can lead to a state of "GM Cognitive Blind Spot Ilusionism" (where the GM subordinates play to their will unknowingly and without intent). That is a very interesting bit of conjecture so I think entertaining a conversation on that is relevant to your initial ask (and certainly a curiosity to me

I’m trying to imagine running Blades and trying to force a specific outcome, but to also be unaware that I’m doing so.

I can’t seem to quite picture how it could be. When I run Blades, I do have ideas in mind of things I want to bring into play, but I don’t think that these elements are a case of force because they’re either a result of prior play....let’s say the PCs have killed a few opponents on a couple of scores, so now they’re being investigated by the Spirit Wardens....or they’re elements that the players have indicated they’d like to see....such as a player whose PC used to be a member of the Red Sashes, so I have the crew run afoul of that gang to see what happens.

I suppose maybe an example could be if I wanted to incorporate Lord Scurlock as a foil to the PCs and so invariably the story runs headlong into him one way or the other, despite him not really being connected to anything that’s already been established in the game. Maybe that’s a GM forcing a specific element....but I’d think it’d be obvious. If not to the GM then to the players.
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
Then your definition is illusionism is far narrower than commonly understood. I have had many discussions where anti-illusionism people are livid about the sort of thing mentioned here (i.e. a blind decision leading to a predetermined outcome regardless of the choice being made.)

"Do you want to go to the Grim Woods or to the Ghastly Forest?" Regardless: orcs!
Which raises a side-along question: in a situation where the DM has prepped the map and pre-assigned what kind of creatures live (or are likely to be found) in what areas, if the Black Shield Orcs live in the Grim Woods and the Bloodknife Orcs live in the Ghastly Forest* then no matter which way the PCs go they're probably going to meet Orcs, like it or not.

It won't be until-unless they visit both forest that they'll realize they're not the same Orcs; until then it might very well look like the DM is dropping the Orcs in front of them no matter where they go.

* - though the inhabitants of something called the Ghastly Forest should really all be Ghasts, right? :)
 

pemerton

Legend
I’d think it’d be obvious. If not to the GM then to the players.
This.

If action resolution, and framing, and establishing consequences, are all happening in a robust way in accordance with known principles, then departures from them will be obvious.

This was a feature of the first session or two of BW that I played in. These were the first RPG sessions the GM had ever GMed - and a couple of times he introduced a NPC who clearly was of interest to him, but with nothing having been done to link that NPC to my PC's Beliefs or relationships.

I didn't complain about it. I just minimised my PC's interaction with those PCs, and used the resources at my disposal - in particular, action declaration - to restore the focus to what I was interested in.
 

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