GM Authority (Edited For Clarity, Post #148)

[Minigiant]

I won't dispute that D&D always does combat better than anything else as far as it's own rules go.
But my practical experience with non-combat stuff - spanning 1e/2e/3x/PF1/5e, decades, numerous players/DMs - doesn't lead me to share your conclusion at all.

{shrugs} Perhaps the difference lies in who we've played with.

My point is that D&D tied combat power to social and knowledge power where these 3 are independent in ASOIAF.

It's less about the players and more about the mechanics. If you freeform RP the social and lore part, you aren't really playing D&D are you?

No game does. You need players who are good roleplayers and who are invested in the setting to run that sort of campaign properly, because it is based on ideas, innovation, and value judgements, not pluses or advantages.

Which is why the OP's situation is so clear: the GM is offering a campaign of nuance and thinking, and Player X wants to run an Elf. It's a clear situation of a player who is not suited for the type of game proposed.

No, you could design a game based on lore, diplomacy, titles, and domain management.
Like a mix of dating sim mixed with a 4X.
Kinda like playing Crusader Kings with dice.

If fact, the elf player could be one of the most serious one seeing how haughty and twisted a hardcor fey style elf could be. Fits right in.

Sir Sneak is the one doing it wrong. Knights in GOT don't sneak, they fight.

 

[Thomas Shey]

It's less about the players and more about the mechanics. If you freeform RP the social and lore part, you aren't really playing D&D are you?

[snark alert] Depends on what edition. [/snark alert]

No, you could design a game based on lore, diplomacy, titles, and domain management.
Like a mix of dating sim mixed with a 4X.
Kinda like playing Crusader Kings with dice.

If fact, the elf player could be one of the most serious one seeing how haughty and twisted a hardcor fey style elf could be. Fits right in.

Sir Sneak is the one doing it wrong. Knights in GOT don't sneak, they fight.

Jaime certainly seemed to do so sometimes.

 

[ccs]

My point is that D&D tied combat power to social and knowledge power where these 3 are independent in ASOIAF.

It's less about the players and more about the mechanics. If you freeform RP the social and lore part, you aren't really playing D&D are you?

There's a difference between Role Play & Roll Play....

And you are incorrect in several ways.

1st:
D&D ties increasing prowess (whatever the category) to gaining xp*. It's just heavily implied that most of that xp comes from fighting....
But (depending upon edition &/or DM) in fact xp can be gained by A) gaining treasure, B) killing monsters, C) overcoming monsters, D) doing "class things" such as thieves thieving/fighter being strong/etc, E) overcoming traps/tricks/obstacles, F) reaching various "Milestones" story-wise, or really for whatever reason the DM decides to award xp for.

*The exception is increasing some stats due to aging. See 1e DMG for details.

2nd:
It's definitely about the players.
You get the wrong mix of Roll/Role going on....

3rd:
LOL.: "If you freeform RP the social and lore part, you aren't really playing D&D are you?"
Yes, I am. I have it on authority from those who created the game that any rules can be altered/created/ignored as best suits the needs of those playing. I've had this permission since I opened my 1st D&D book.
Would you like me to quote you some Gygax etc on the subject?

 

[ccs]

[snark alert] Depends on what edition. [/snark alert]



Jaime certainly seemed to do so sometimes.

The 1st one that came to my mind is Bronn. That ones definitely not above sneaking.

 

[Thomas Shey]

The 1st one that came to my mind is Bronn. That ones definitely not above sneaking.

Bronn wasn't a knight as such until pretty late in the day.

 

[Thomas Shey]

There's a difference between Role Play & Roll Play....

Oh, good gods and little fishes.

 

[ccs]

Bronn wasn't a knight as such until pretty late in the day.

Late still counts & he'd certainly do it.
And I can envision making a character "inspired" by him who achieved "Sir" earlier.

 

[zarionofarabel]

Edited for clarity

I have a question regarding the extent of GM authority. I would like people to answer this poll to see what the gaming community thinks should happen in a particular situation.

The group gathers to play a new campaign... A group of people, quite possibly strangers, meet to play a new campaign. The GM, notified ahead of time that they will be running the game has prepared an "elevator pitch" to try to sell the idea of the campaign they wish to run.

The GM "I would like to play a campaign influenced by Game of Thrones. It will still have magic and monsters but the characters will be regular people humans in a pseudo-medieval land, like the vast majority of the characters in the show."

Player #1 "Nice. I will play Sir Knight the Knightliest of Knights!"

Player #2 "Sure. I will play Lady Noble the Noblest of Nobles!"

Player #3 "Sweet. I will play Sir Sneak the Sneakiest of Sneaks!"

Player #4 "Okay. I will play Sir Elf the Elfiest of Elfs!"

The GM "No wait..."

Then the argument epic lightsaber duel yelling match polite discussion about the campaign premise starts. The Player insists that they should be able to play an Elf because the core book says Elf is a playable race. Round and round it goes with The GM explaining that the campaign they want to run won't include Non-Human characters, the only intelligent playable race is that will feature in the campaign are Humans. The Player insists that The GM must compromise and allow them to play an Elf, because that's what they want to play, period. The other players chime in at some point to say that they are totally 100% okay with playing only humans as humans are unique individuals differentiated by more than looks and ability. After arguing fighting to the death yelling and waving their hands around politely discussing the issue of the campaign premise for a time The GM realizes that no agreement compromise can be reached. Either the premise of the campaign gets scrapped and The Player gets to play an Elf, or The GM must kick The Player out of the group.

Should The GM be forced to accommodate The Player? Or is The Player going to have to find a different campaign where they can play an Elf?

Who would you side with?

The Player, who then gets to play an Elf.

OR.

The GM, who will kick the player out because they won't play a Human.

NOTE: As no system was mentioned assuming D&D 5e is being used is a false assumption. Other systems that include both Humans and Elfs as playable characters include, Burning Wheel, Warhammer Fantasy Roleplaying, Desolation, Dragon Age, The One Ring, Pathfinder, and most OSR games, among others.

Please vote, or change your vote if you wish. Thank you for all the votes and replies!

 

[Crusadius]

Game masters should not feel that they need to compromise the game they've spent some time organising. If the Player has a convincing argument as to why they should be able to, given the original post, "play an elf when human-only is the premise of the campaign" then the GM wouldn't have any opposition... they've been convinced after all. But it appears "that's what I want to play" wasn't convincing enough.

In this case it appears the Player won't be joining in with the rest of the Players to play the game. The GM didn't kick them out, the Player chose not to play because it wasn't a game they wanted to play. The Player could, of course, offer to become the GM and run the Elronds and Elves game they really really wanted the (now former) GM to run; perhaps they'll be able to enlighten the former GM about the wonders of playing elves and get them to run the next game of E&E.

 

[Jd Smith1]

No, you could design a game based on lore, diplomacy, titles, and domain management.
Like a mix of dating sim mixed with a 4X.
Kinda like playing Crusader Kings with dice.

If fact, the elf player could be one of the most serious one seeing how haughty and twisted a hardcor fey style elf could be. Fits right in.

Sir Sneak is the one doing it wrong. Knights in GOT don't sneak, they fight.

You could. Why you would bother designing an entire game when you could just add a couple house-rules to an existing one is a question for the individual.

No, a guy who hears GoT and wants an Elf is not an asset.