A Question Of Agency?

It depends on if you view integrity of the game/gameworld as integral to having agency and then whether you view the inclusion of mechanics that drive the fiction as taking away the integrity of the game/gameworld.
Fair point, but the player's actions are limited by the conventions of the rules as much as they are the conventions of the world, and expanded by both. Grappling in 5th edition D&D is awkward, while grabbing someone in the real world isn't as hard nor as useless as the 5e equivalent.

Similarly, the integrity of the gameworld can't be said to exist without a few gamey mechanics along the way, it's defined by its limitations and conventions.

I tend to play the game in a more game-centric sense, where the introduction of a mechanic which affects the narrative is no more alien a concept than a quest or a madness trait which the player has chosen in exchange for benefits. As long as the player has agency, the gameworld is secure, because, well, it's a game, played by people. I don't really care if the characters have agency, to be honest, as long as the players have chosen any limitations on their agency, and none have been imposed by me.
 

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@Ovinomancer

Your contribution needing to go through a review process doesn't mean that you didn't exercise agency in creating that contribution. Without you there wouldn't even be a thing for the final arbiter to approve.
You've swapped the goalposts, here. I'm talking about doing Thing A. You're talking about proposing Thing A to someone else with the authority to allow to deny. You've dressed this up in "review process" but it's still a shift in what we're talking about. You can propose whatever you like, and, sure, that's some kind of agency in the sense that no one can stop you (presumably). But that agency to propose Thing A doesn't translate into doing Thing A.

We're talking about doing Thing A. As I've already allowed, you have some kind of social agency, in real life, to play act your character however you want. This isn't required by the game, though, so doesn't translate into agency in the game. The ability to do a thing that isn't necessary to the game can't be said to be part of the game. It's also present in all games, in equal measure, so it's a wash in considerations of agency. The agency in the game is the ability to do things in the game, that are required by the game. These are character actions, and here, looking at the fact that the GM can negate those actions unilaterally, usually by reference to secret fiction, is a removal of agency from the player. This is usually ameliorated by the conventions that the secret fiction is fixed and/or fair and discoverable through actions that will not be negated. This equates to solving a puzzle, and you have some agency here, but it's by those conventions which constrain when the GM can unilaterally negate actions into places where your skill as a player hasn't measured up to the challenge.

So, yeah, there's agency in games where the core mechanic is GM decides. I would not play 5e if this were not true. Agency is present in these conventions that restrain the GM's authority, and are usually unspoken, social contracts that revolve around an also unspoken concept of "fair play." These conventions get breached all the time, though, but rarely enough that they hold in place, or in ways that a particular group has become accustomed to and so incorporated into the unspoken concept of fair play. You see this a lot in the 5e forums, where differences in the understanding of this unspoken concept of fair play between groups clash in discussions on use of Force and fudging. You see it here, where you're bringing along your unspoken social concepts that your table plays by and using those instead of the bare rules to judge the presence of agency. Fundamentally, though, I cannot exercise agency over a thing if someone else must grant permission for it to happen. The confusion I see from you on this is that exact unspoken contract, where you know that a GM is actually constrained by the social conventions of your table (and most tables) so as to not fully have this authority in all cases. This isn't a feature of the rules, or your ability to play-act, but of the social nature of how we do things as people. And, recognizing that the game has moved that there, and what exactly that unspoken agreement entails, can improve your game because you know can go to the right place to tweak things that may be bothering you. I see this misunderstanding all the time in the forums as well, where well-meaning GMs are trying to introduce house-rules to constrain behavior that's enabled by the social contracts in place and so end up frustrated when the game mechanic fixes don't address the problem.

I've put this last bit into practice, by having open discussions of how I will GM in any given game, what I will be held to and what goals I'm trying to seek. I expect players to do the same. This has made, so far, every single game I've played doing this more engaging and free, as players know exactly how I will interact with their play. And, if I don't, they can call me on it.
 

Fair point, but the player's actions are limited by the conventions of the rules as much as they are the conventions of the world, and expanded by both. Grappling in 5th edition D&D is awkward, while grabbing someone in the real world isn't as hard nor as useless as the 5e equivalent.

Similarly, the integrity of the gameworld can't be said to exist without a few gamey mechanics along the way, it's defined by its limitations and conventions.

I tend to play the game in a more game-centric sense, where the introduction of a mechanic which affects the narrative is no more alien a concept than a quest or a madness trait which the player has chosen in exchange for benefits. As long as the player has agency, the gameworld is secure, because, well, it's a game, played by people. I don't really care if the characters have agency, to be honest, as long as the players have chosen any limitations on their agency, and none have been imposed by me.
I'm not saying the gameworld having integrity is an objective thing. I would say it's not. It's for each player to determine if the gameworld has integrity.
 

So, yeah, there's agency in games where the core mechanic is GM decides. I would not play 5e if this were not true. Agency is present in these conventions that restrain the GM's authority, and are usually unspoken, social contracts that revolve around an also unspoken concept of "fair play."
Precisely.

Often, the discussion becomes so semantic and exaggerated in its stupidity and insistence on terminology that we forget that the social contract of a game implies that players have entered into an agreement wherein the conventions of the game are as gamey as need be, character agency aside.
 

I'm not saying the gameworld having integrity is an objective thing. I would say it's not. It's for each player to determine if the gameworld has integrity.
Again, not really my problem. If the player dislikes the function of their character's story motivation, they don't have to choose mechanical options which affect story. I am never, at my table, going to restrict player choice, and character motivation limitations are self-imposed. As to whether the game world has "integrity", I do not care, it is a game.
 

Again, not really my problem. If the player dislikes the function of their character's story motivation, they don't have to choose mechanical options which affect story. I am never, at my table, going to restrict player choice, and character motivation limitations are self-imposed. As to whether the game world has "integrity", I do not care, it is a game.
If gameworld integrity is needed for player agency and you care about not taking away players agency then how can you say you don't care about integrity?
 

If gameworld integrity is needed for player agency and you care about not taking away players agency then how can you say you don't care about integrity?
Gameworld integrity is a loaded term, but consider this.

If I play a game wherein my character's choice freedoms are limited by my choice of traits, the game world does not have much integrity at all. The nature of choice is driven largely by externals chosen by the player. I can still use my agency, due to my preexisting choices, and the linear nature of events (I don't ret-con). It's not a complete retention of game integrity, but it's more than enough to see play.

As for what I do in practice, I rarely use systems of character separation from player decisions, so, it does not often get invoked. "Game Master decides" is a contract which my players have entered into, but I do not violate the player's choice over the character's actions.

Stated simply, the players have agreed to a convention where the characters do not always have agency, or where the world holds integrity, but we have fun in the game environment nonetheless.
 

Precisely.

Often, the discussion becomes so semantic and exaggerated in its stupidity and insistence on terminology that we forget that the social contract of a game implies that players have entered into an agreement wherein the conventions of the game are as gamey as need be, character agency aside.
I often find that it's the presence of assumed social contracts that detracts from the ability to actually look at how a game functions, because the value judgements from the social contract are imported into the game. So, yeah, not disagreeing but it's a double-edged sword. To me, how a game functions is one thing, and how a game functions once you've overlaid a table's social convention is another thing entirely. Since I have zero visibility into other people's social conventions at their table, I can only speak to the game as it is presented by it's rules and ancillary materials.

So, a given game of 5e may feature quite a lot of agency due to the social conventions of the table constraining the GM more than the rules of the game do. As the rules present, though, there's a lot of work for those conventions to do to get there. I know, I've done that work.
 



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