Next Gen Games?

In this case it's Ron rather than Vince.
Doh!
Part of what I took his point to be - and it's one I've seen play out - is that even at the id level there can be social contract breakdown - ranging from arguments about how many orcs were caught in the fireball, to whether or not the amount of treasure in the dungeon is fair, to whether or not the GM is using powerful NPCs to boss the PCs (and thus the players) around.

I think the AP is actually a fairly clever solution to this particular problem.
Well, yes, there can be disputes in ANY game. I'm not sure what APs do to solve some of those basic "what happened when I tried to do X?" disputes. They generally arise due to unclear understanding (lack of consensus on) what the fictional positioning (or in the orc case LITERAL positioning) is...
The other examples, yes, an AP/Module will at least absolve the local DM of responsibility, he can always say that "this is how much treasure is in the module" or "the module says this boss does X, I didn't write it." Of course the table may or may not buy that!

I think a more narrative approach is likely to avoid some of the basic confusion problems, or at least often resolve them more like "Oh, I guess we can go with that interpretation, whatever..." since everyone is likely to have some further input down the line that can get them what they wanted anyway. And yes, ideally you would never have an NPC 'bossing the party around' except as part of some framing they invited to start with. However, there is no specific guarantee that the players will LIKE the framing they get. I mean, GMs can misjudge or just be bad at that part of their job...

I think there's elements of play that go smoother with a more narrative kind of game that is thus less 'id', but I suspect there's sort of a 'law of preservation of conflict' that operates. If the people at the table don't mesh, no set of rules is going to fix that, they're just going to argue over different things...
 

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pemerton

Legend
Well, yes, there can be disputes in ANY game. I'm not sure what APs do to solve some of those basic "what happened when I tried to do X?" disputes. They generally arise due to unclear understanding (lack of consensus on) what the fictional positioning (or in the orc case LITERAL positioning) is...
The other examples, yes, an AP/Module will at least absolve the local DM of responsibility, he can always say that "this is how much treasure is in the module" or "the module says this boss does X, I didn't write it." Of course the table may or may not buy that!
Your second paragraph was what I had in mind, yes.

With the first: there can still be disputes about fictional positioning etc, but the AP framework creates an overarching context for the GM to make decisions about what is "fair" opposition, etc. And it creates a framework for the use of fairly high degrees of GM force at key moments.

As you know I'm not personally the biggest fan of GM force as a resolution method, but it seems fairly common and the AP creates a framework which makes it appear less arbitrary (this is where the point in the second para feeds back into the first).
 

Aldarc

Legend
A @pemerton-inspired necro.

Uh, 2d20, cause they have a ton of recognizable IPs under their belt. I also see PbtA games mentioned on almost every single "suggest a game" threads on every forum I read.
After seeing the Dune character sheet and having heard @aramis erak allude a bit to how various iterations of 2d20 games have shifted the system, though he is welcome to correct me, I'm curious about the future of this system as well.
 


Eyes of Nine

Everything's Fine
(joining this necro due to x-post from another thread)
You know, the thing about PbtA is that it feels "easy" to create a PbtA game (hint: it's not) because the structure feels really apparent: Playbooks, Moves that include 6-, 7-9, 10+ results, Agendas, Principles and boom - you've got yourself a PbtA game. And at the same time creating all that stuff REQUIRES you to integrate setting into the rules. If you take a look at the playbook names between Dungeon World, Apocalypse World, The Veil, Urban Shadows, Monsterhearts ad infinitum you immediately can tell what the game is based on just the names of the playbooks. Because that was required, it also required the creator to have a strong vision of their setting that they could communicate via the rules. This in turn gave readers (GMs and Players both) a strong sense of the vision - and therefore made play more easily replicate the cultural touchstones that gave birth to the setting in the first place.


I think that's why PbtA took off so strong in the first 3/4s of the 10's. That said, just about every possible cultural touchstone that resonates with the RPG nerdiverse has been mined - so the game is played out.

I feel like whatever comes next is going to also very strongly encourage setting melded with rules as well as provide a sense of simplicity (whether illusionary as in PbtA or real as in Descended from the Queen). Honestly, my expectation is that the next wave of games are going to be more along the lines of For the Queen rather than more traditional games like Y0E or BRP/Pendragon or Gumshoe.

I also curious to see what 2020's forcing function for 99% of us to move to online gaming how that will impact game design going forward. Based on what I've seen said on this forum and others is that a good proportion of folks won't be going back to f2f games, or those will be a rarity.
 

Campbell

Relaxed Intensity
Right now I'm really interested in games like The Nightmares Underneath and Necrolautinus that utilize indie and OSR techniques in interesting fusions. I'll have more when I'm actually able to wrap my head around Necrolautinus. Just came in the mail.

 

(joining this necro due to x-post from another thread)
You know, the thing about PbtA is that it feels "easy" to create a PbtA game (hint: it's not) because the structure feels really apparent: Playbooks, Moves that include 6-, 7-9, 10+ results, Agendas, Principles and boom - you've got yourself a PbtA game. And at the same time creating all that stuff REQUIRES you to integrate setting into the rules. If you take a look at the playbook names between Dungeon World, Apocalypse World, The Veil, Urban Shadows, Monsterhearts ad infinitum you immediately can tell what the game is based on just the names of the playbooks. Because that was required, it also required the creator to have a strong vision of their setting that they could communicate via the rules. This in turn gave readers (GMs and Players both) a strong sense of the vision - and therefore made play more easily replicate the cultural touchstones that gave birth to the setting in the first place.


I think that's why PbtA took off so strong in the first 3/4s of the 10's. That said, just about every possible cultural touchstone that resonates with the RPG nerdiverse has been mined - so the game is played out.

I feel like whatever comes next is going to also very strongly encourage setting melded with rules as well as provide a sense of simplicity (whether illusionary as in PbtA or real as in Descended from the Queen). Honestly, my expectation is that the next wave of games are going to be more along the lines of For the Queen rather than more traditional games like Y0E or BRP/Pendragon or Gumshoe.

I also curious to see what 2020's forcing function for 99% of us to move to online gaming how that will impact game design going forward. Based on what I've seen said on this forum and others is that a good proportion of folks won't be going back to f2f games, or those will be a rarity.
Well.... I think it is fair to say that PbtA games are very tightly defined in terms of the genre, tone, and general milieu, but they need not be literally SETTING specific. That is, Dungeon World for example really is not more setting specific than D&D. Each one has a pretty tightly defined genre, but you can set DW games in a wide variety of worlds, probably anything that would work for D&D. So, I don't see that the design is less flexible than that of earlier RPGs.

Nor were most earlier RPGs mostly exceptionally broad in their genre/tone. If you think of just TSR games, you had Boot Hill (very very niche game), MA/GW is also quite niche, 007, Indiana Jones, MSH, and even Star Frontiers. This is typical of games originating in the late 70's and early 80's. Certain companies tried to build "general systems", but I question how successful that was. GURPS enjoyed some success, for a while, but it was always kind of a second choice in any given genre to some more niche game. BRP-derived games have been a bit more successful, but nowadays seem fairly dated, though a couple of them are still reasonably popular. In any case, no specific game in either line does more than one specific thing well.

So, yes, PbtA games CAN be pretty narrow, like AW itself, or really niche games like Monster Hearts, but they can also be as general as pretty much any other RPG, such as D&D is.

Also, while I think making any really good RPG is a pretty significant piece of work that requires a lot of expertise these days, I'm not sure the PbtA 'road map' is any harder to implement than any other. I mean, if you look at games like BitD, Ironsworn, Strike!, more recent vintages of FATE and Burning Wheel, I don't think they were easier to design, and all probably have equally heavily crafted and finally tuned core structure. There is nothing simple about designing a good RPG. This is probably why, these days, people generally choose to start with an existing game, abstract away just the essence of it, and reapply it again and again to new niches. In this sense PbtA seems really successful and would seem to represent the easiest path...
 

Aldarc

Legend
Right now I'm really interested in games like The Nightmares Underneath and Necrolautinus that utilize indie and OSR techniques in interesting fusions. I'll have more when I'm actually able to wrap my head around Necrolautinus. Just came in the mail.
Necrolautinus sounds interesting. It reminds me quite heavily of my Underworld campaign project where the characters find themselves dead in a realm of the Underworld designated for the broken or lost souls. The characters quest through the Underworld searching for their memories while also using bits and pieces of memories from others they find elsewhere in the hopes of attaining a better fate. There were modified versions that would use either the Cypher System, Black Hack, or ICRPG depending on which system the players felt in the mood to use.
 

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