A Question Of Agency?

[Aldarc]

Not finding one's brother because he's dead is clearly an outcome. And you are saying that in your style of sandbox the GM is free to set up that outcome.

Again, not drawing any conclusions, but flat out denial of the validity of a player's agenda simply on the basis of "I'm the DM and I get to decide." That is the DM being a dick, period.

This. The GM deciding that the brother is already dead seems like the GM is forcing a predetermined outcome of play on the player. So yeah, it's a dick move.

 

[Lanefan]

I think these two factors likely play a big role in how one would approach play, for sure. Certainly they would influence any prep that may be considered.

I don’t know if I agree with all your benefits and drawbacks conclusions, but I think you’re right that this is a big factor. Possibly also determined by the chosen rules system.

Rules system would play a part, yes. My example assumed the same rules system for both options, to try and highlight the differences elsewhere.

 

[Lanefan]

I don’t think play style has anything to do with it to be honest. It’s a dick move. Explain to me how in any playstyle this isn’t a dick move on the part of the GM.

I must be missing something here - how is disliking magic item wish lists a dick move?

Or does the dick-move part lie in not fulfilling the player's adventure request? If done maliciously, I could see the dick part of it, but if the DM has set up a string of desert-based adventures and a player asks for something in the arctic, the player at best is going to have to wait. Even more so, perhaps, if other players have asked for undersea, jungle, and mountain adventuring after the desert bit is done.

That said, switching up the environment now and then is always a good idea. Desert, arctic, swamp, underground, mountain, jungle, maritime, forest - it's nice to vary it up some. My problem always lies in how to do this without either a) giving the PCs easy access to fast long-range travel or b) blipping them somewhere by fiat or c) having them spend potentially months of in-game time trudging from one place to another.

The reason c) is a problem for me is that if a party decides to spend months in transit I pretty much have to put them on hold while we play out what the other active parties in the game world get up to during that time.

 

[Lanefan]

The issue is the action of the player is looking for the lost brother. Whether he succeeds at that or not, is a separate question from whether the brother is alive, living it up somewhere, or asleep in a gutter. Those are questions I would expect the GM to answer, independent of the PCs success in finding him. I would also expect the search to be the product of more than say a single roll of a skill. Again this is dependent on the campaign. I am talking about sandbox, living world adventures. In that style, it is entirely expected that the GM has purview over the brother's status.

With, of course, one rare but not unheard-of exception: that the brother is in fact another PC, run by either the same player or another.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

It is possible for the PC's desire to find his/her brother to fail, perhaps to fail because the brother is dead, without the GM deciding that in advance. For instance, there could be a soft move in response to a failed check - You hear that your brother was in the parts, getting ready to cross swords with notoriously ruthless swordfighter so-and-so, etc - and then a further failed check that triggers a hard move - When you get to the fighting ground it's all over. They tell you the fight happened yesterday. There's a child hanging around - she offers to take you to your brother's gravestone for a grote and a bowl of warm meal.

Personally I would feel far more frustrated if my character's brother dying was a result of a fumble on 'find brother' check. I think this has been a trend in these discussions. Some people seem to be far more engaged with dice rolls than I am.

In any case, If one feels that the brother being dead is a pointless cul-de-sac, making the quest to find him a waste of time, then it will be that whether the outcome was decided by a GM or produced by RNG. But of course it doesn't need to be that in either case. It would just be a turning point; it will open up all new directions. Who killed the brother an why? Will the character now seek revenge? Will they find out new details about their brother that will force them to evaluate their past relationship?

 

[Aldarc]

With, of course, one rare but not unheard-of exception: that the brother is in fact another PC, run by either the same player or another.

Though another interesting bit would be to have the PC find the brother, die heroically while saving them, and then the player picks up with playing the brother.

 

[Bedrockgames]

Again, not drawing any conclusions, but flat out denial of the validity of a player's agenda simply on the basis of "I'm the DM and I get to decide." That is the DM being a dick, period.

Again, in this mode of play, the player simply isn't assumed to be able to set an agenda that extensive into the setting. You can certainly have the agenda of wanting to find your brother, but what is going on with your brother is under the purview of the GM. Obviously in a game where that isn't a case, it might be a dick move if the player is expected to have that sort of agenda. Why people can't even entertain the thought of this, and see how for lots of people operating under this style of play, it isn't at all a dick move, I really can't understand.

 

[Aldarc]

Again, in this mode of play, the player simply isn't assumed to be able to set an agenda that extensive into the setting. You can certainly have the agenda of wanting to find your brother, but what is going on with your brother is under the purview of the GM. Obviously in a game where that isn't a case, it might be a dick move if the player is expected to have that sort of agenda. Why people can't even entertain the thought of this, and see how for lots of people operating under this style of play, it isn't at all a dick move, I really can't understand.

Of course, but we have already established that some players prefer lower agency games where everything but player actions are part of the GM catering service.

 

[Bedrockgames]

In any case, If one feels that the brother being dead is a pointless cul-de-sac, making the quest to find him a waste of time, then it will be that whether the outcome was decided by a GM or produced by RNG. But of course it doesn't need to be that in either case. It would just be a turning point; it will open up all new directions. Who killed the brother an why? Will the character now seek revenge? Will they find out new details about their brother that will force them to evaluate their past relationship?

Exactly all these things. And like I said many times, the brother being dead is just one possible outcome (and it is a possibility the player is totally aware of when setting out on this kind of search). I have had long lost relatives in my campaigns. I am sure some of them have died off screen. But most don't. I take adjudicating family members of PCs very seriously because they can easily devolve into pawns that help the GM advance his or her own agenda, or just used to annoy players all the time. But I do try to give those characters their own agency (and again, yes I am using a different definition of agency from the other folks here). In one case, in fact, one of the sessions I linked to, one of the players had re-united with his long lost father and brother, and, if I recall correctly, was trying to help re-establish their old sect. The father was a great guy, and treated the player character well, but the player character was engaged in some shady business, and the brother, was a bit of a self righteous jerk. The player had to deal with dynamic while trying to rebuild his sect. I think he and the brother may have eventually become enemies, but I can't recall without going back to the logs as it was at least 2 or 3 years ago. None of this was stuff the player was allowed to order like off a menu. This was all stuff he knew full well I would create behind the scenes and he would discover what the case was as he searched for them, found them, and if they were alive (which he didn't know if they were), interacted with them. This doesn't strike me as controversial at all.

 

[Bedrockgames]

I must be missing something here - how is disliking magic item wish lists a dick move?

Maybe I missed something, I though he was saying that not fullfilling the player's desire to reunite with his missing brother was a dick move, by deciding the brother is dead. If its about wishlists, all I can say is, no amount of debate will get me to stop hating those