A Question Of Agency?

Okay, so you reject my idea of agency and railroading. But you're the one whose ideas are being attacked?

I hope you realize how this might be frustrating.

Well it seems that my idea of agency is being rejected so I don't know what to say. I am basically trying to take the same position Frogreaver takes here: there are clearly multiple views on agency in this thread (though I would maintain the one I am expressing is the view I have pretty much the only use I have encountered around the term in RPGs---and I do think that is important). But I get there can be other conceptions of agency
 

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Just offering my perspective on things here. I would like us to get to the point where we can have a more productive discussion, but I'm not entirely sure it is possible. I would like to get to the place where we can just talk about our personal experiences and stuff. Like how discussion was on Story Games instead of the debate club / definition wars that are happening in this thread.

I agree. I'll be moving on, I think we've all beat that dead horse enough.

Here's something to consider : Do different sorts of fiction offer different amounts of agency. Like to me it's patently obvious that when I'm playing Exalted where a starting character can start as a world class swordsman, have substantial connections in the setting, and may even have an army, and substantial divine blessings they have considerably more ability to enact their will upon the setting than a game where I play a fairly weak conscript who has little autonomy in the fiction. For purposes of this discussion assume similar GMing techniques apply.

That's an interesting question. I feel like it depends on the game in question, to an extent.

Like, when we sit down at the table, are we all agreeing to play these demigod characters or conscripts, or will it be some mix? I know you said GMing techniques would be the same, but what about the expectations of what a character will be and will be able to do?

Generally speaking, I can see how the demigod character has resources that the player can use to open up avenues of play that would not exist for the conscript, and therefore the player of the conscript. But I'd also expect that these are choices involving the players and that they are free to choose what kind of character to play if more than one was available.

But I also think it's just a heightened scale, right? Is the demigod constrained by higher powers and such similar to what the conscript may be by more mundane or immediate means?

It probably boils down to how it's GMed. And if we're assuming principled GMing applied to both characters, then I'd likely say that there is still the same amount of agency going on.
 

@hawkeyefan but certainly 'your brother is dead' is a valid outcome of a journey of finding said brother? (And not automatically a dramatically unsatisfying one.)

Yes, absolutely. Compare it to the character who tried but failed to become a scholar in Bedrock's other game. I have plenty of examples from my own games where the thrust of play was about some personal goal and the PC ultimately didn't realize their goal, or didn't realize it in the way they had hoped to.

For me, agency is what allows the player to examine that idea and to play to find out what the result is, and to put the resolution of it in the player's hands.

Because you are setting outcomes with those goals. In a sandbox, you don't get to set the outcome.

A goal is an outcome of a sort, no? It's the preferred outcome. Also, I don't think that saying "My PC is looking for his brother" is setting an outcome, is it? I mean, sure, maybe we can assume he'd like to find him safe and sound or whatever, but I expect that if that was hastily narrated it would be just as dissatisfying as "He's dead".

But let me clarify this and then I think we can both move on.....I'm not asking for the result to be predetermined. Not by the GM and not by the player either. I think agency means that I can set goals for my PC and the realization of those goals, or the failure to do so, is largely up to me. Not in a "player decides" or narrative power way.....but that my character has the means to carry it out and that the result is determined through play.

Can I find my brother? Can I become an imperial scholar? Can I achieve? Shouldn't it be up to me? Again, not from some narrative power to say "Yup, my wish is granted" but rather that it's the character who actually achieves....it's the player who actually achieves.

GM deciding by fiat can totally undermine that.


Well it seems that my idea of agency is being rejected so I don't know what to say. I am basically trying to take the same position Frogreaver takes here: there are clearly multiple views on agency in this thread (though I would maintain the one I am expressing is the view I have pretty much the only use I have encountered around the term in RPGs---and I do think that is important). But I get there can be other conceptions of agency

As you said, we have different takes on agency. It's well established, and we've exhausted any possible avenues of discussion I'd say.
 

Anyone who feels like they run a "True Sandbox", I'm curious in what ways their system is differentiated from the Expert Set and Dungeon World (Perilous Wilds in particular) in terms of wilderness travel.

WILDERNESS PLAY LOOP

The Expert Set's wilderness play loop tries to just scale up Moldvay Basic's play loop up from "The Exploration Turn" to "The Day's Travel." Its neither particularly satisfying nor wieldy. Frame situation in 6 mile hex > PCs use established marching order and pick direction/course for 1 day's worth travel > check for Lost > check for Wandering Monsters and go to Encounter procedures if it hits > End Travel (Camp/Keep Watch and Rest). There are a lot of things that are fuzzy and not terribly well integrated...leaving the GM to sort it out/balance (except for things like Foraging...you cannot Forage, there is hard cap on rations for your trek...but its left to the GM what the fallout for ration spoilation/loss and attendant exposure would be and how that would manifest mechanically).

Dungeon World (and Perilous Wilds specifically) mechanizes this loop with Undertake a Perilous Journey. Its a million times better than the Expert Loop in every way possible (framing being infinitely better integrated in subsequent decision-points, decision-points are "meatier" and more consequential, the action in a day is many times more dynamic with more interesting fallout. Consult where you are on the map and where you want to go > Confirm course to get there and how far you can get in a day > Pick Scout, Navigator, Quartermaster and make Scout Ahead move > Resolve any related Dangers or Discoveries encountered along the way > Make Navigator move > Resolve any related Dangers or Discoveries > Either/both of these moves can snowball into other problems > Make Camp Move = QM makes Manage Provisions Move and resolve Rations and any soft/hard move + one person on watch rolls +nothing for night event > if Danger resolve Stay Sharp move and then resolve Danger.

Unlike Expert, you can make a move where you spend a day attempting to Forage/Hunt (assuming all of the related risk and possibly profiting).

The Dungeon World approach is very different in several ways. It integrates a lot of gamestate/fiction-relevant decision-points + resource pressures (Encumbrance/Coin + Rations and exposure fallout along several axes - HP, Debilities, loss of/threat to Rest/Gear/Spells/Hirelings or Companions, hard Complications on fictional positioning - "you can't see/walk/use your left arm").

1) How do your games handle the wilderness play loop (time, space, movement, source(s) of pressure, encumbrance, resources)?

2) How does it make decision-points meaningful:

  • with inferable immediate and possible downstream impacts (gamestate changes and their attendant fiction)
  • with interesting and dynamic tactical/strategic overhead
  • when and how are PCs threatened/pressured and how does that manifest mechanically?

3) Do you feel all of this is well-integrated such that your wilderness play loops result in a reliably satisfying, thematically-coherent experience? If not, where do you feel the problems lie?
 

Yes, absolutely. Compare it to the character who tried but failed to become a scholar in Bedrock's other game. I have plenty of examples from my own games where the thrust of play was about some personal goal and the PC ultimately didn't realize their goal, or didn't realize it in the way they had hoped to.


All I can say is this is how it is likely to arise in a sandbox. The player says I am going to start looking for my long lost brother, we are going to head to Dee to see if the Holy Killers can help me find where he might be. At this point, presumably it is the first this idea was introduced, the GM if he hasn't says okay and manages the trip to Dee (rolling for encounters, asking what route the players take if that is relevant, etc), then, if he hasn't done so yet in the campaign, starts thinking and deciding things like where the brother was, what he was doing, what he achieved, what his goals were, what developments occurred, if he is still alive. The player is totally free to make this search. But the GM should know, I would expect him to know, at that point if the brother is alive or dead (and the player will learn that outcome when he naturally gets that information in the setting). So say he decides the brother is dead. The Holy Killers might say he went to the Kushen Basin to see Vaagu (or if they have the information, they may tell him right there, he went to Vaagu and was killed by the Kushen. This could be a relatively short info gathering thing in Dee, or it could be a longer venture into the Kushen basin. Depends on what the Holy Killers know (and without looking up my entry on the holy killers, I can't say what their capabilities in that regard might be off the top of my head)
 

Yes, absolutely. Compare it to the character who tried but failed to become a scholar in Bedrock's other game. I have plenty of examples from my own games where the thrust of play was about some personal goal and the PC ultimately didn't realize their goal, or didn't realize it in the way they had hoped to.

Just to be clear, this wasn't the thrust of the campaign. It was simply something that occurred over the course of the campaign amid many other things
 

Well, in a style like this, there are lots of things the GM knows in advance. He doesn't know what is going to happen though. He just knows that the brother is dead. Maybe when the player gets their he tries to resurrect him. Or maybe the player character goes on a murderous rampage after. There are all kinds of places that could lead, that the GM does not know. But you are right he knows that a successful search for the brother would yield knowledge of his death.

By your description of the PbtA approach, it sounds like the setting detail (the brother being alive or dead) is being baked into the player setting that as a goal for the relevant check. If that is how things are done in PbtA, that is fine. People are happy who play those games. My point is, in a sandbox, framing this way, is setting up the outcome, and something you wouldn't do. In most sandbox games a player saying he or she wants to look for their brother isn't going to be distilled into one roll or action. It would like be a number of efforts at tracking down rumors, clues, etc. And there would simply be no assurance that he is alive at the end of that (nor would most people in a sandbox consider an outcome where he is dead as futile (if anything they might be suspicious that it sounds overly dramatic, especially if it involves any of the details you mention above, but I like drama in my sandbox). Also this is just one possible outcome. What makes it exciting is it is an unknown on the player side. One possibility is he is dead. Another possibility is he is alive and waiting there to meet his brother again. Another is he is alive but filled with resentment towards his brother. Or we could even take a page from Death Duel and have him find a coffin upon ending his search, only to later discover his brother faked his own death and has been living wretched existence as nameless wanderer later on. There are all kinds of potential outcomes to "I go look for my long lost brother" in a sandbox. But as a player in that kind of campaign, I don't expect to shape the outcome. I get in other styles of play, and in some RPGs, the expectation is different, and that is fair (and maybe there is an OSR adjacent sandbox style that does that as a lot of the PbtA fans seem to be interested in Old School stuff recently). All those styles are fine by me. But what I am describing is the more OSR rooted, sandbox and living world approach. In this, I really do think the brothers status as alive or dead, would be something that players would expect the GM to decide, and they wouldn't see that decision as infringing on their agency.
In PbtA (and other similar systems) players get to set goals, yes. The goals must be coherent with existing established fiction, genre, etc., although there isn't really a specific process for other game participants to reject what they consider inappropriate/contradictory (presumably this would rely on table etiquette and such, but I have never seen it be a big issue in play). In PbtA SPECIFICALLY, the actual player inputs are fairly indirect, players don't really get to simply say "such and such is so." Going by Dungeon World, which I know far better than the others, there are something like the following avenues for player setting input:
1. GM questions - the GM is directed to 'ask questions' as a general technique of play, but especially at the start of a new campaign. This is fairly loose, but it implies that the players will inject certain fiction into the game at this point; IE if a player asks where his PC might come from, the GM would turn the question back to the player to answer, so the player might thus establish the existence of a 'Steading' within the setting.
2. Bonds - players write bonds for their PCs, both at the start of the game and on an ongoing basis. These establish relationships, which could in turn establish fiction to an extent, though these bonds are rarely over one sentence in length, and usually declarative.
3. Spout Lore - this move causes the GM to tell the player something his PC knows on a given topic. The GM may be constrained to make this information 'useful' and 'relevant to the situation' on a 10+. Creative use of this move can constrain the GM pretty heavily, but GMs can also respond to the PC's move with a move of their own! So it tends to be a pretty limited avenue for player injection of lore.
4. Discern Realities - Like Spout Lore this can be used cleverly by players to, at least, induce the GM to elaborate on a given location. Again the GM can respond with a move.
5. General Fiction - PbtA games in general are 'fiction first'. While players don't have license to simply invent any old thing, they can develop fiction by means of action declarations. For example a player might state that he is attempting to "Push the Orc off the slippery rock." and thus establish the rock's slipperiness, or perhaps even establish what the floor is made of. The GM might counter this kind of thing with something like a Reveal an Unpleasant Truth, move "Oh, that rock wasn't as slippery as you thought!" although this would normally be in response to a 6- on whatever the check was to do the pushing it could simply be a response to something that seems out of line in terms of the existing fiction.

Notice that none of these absolutely gives a Player carte blanche to establish fiction, at least not without the active cooperation of the GM. The GM's agenda and principles of play do, however, indicate that the GM needs to give the players a good bit of leeway.

I would note that, in other respects, DW has some 'sandbox like' features, in that the GM establishes 'fronts' (major elements of meta-plot). These would include 'dangers' and also 'omens' which certainly can work in a very 'sandbox like' way. That is they can simply be things which lie in wait for players to interact with them, and hints as to these things existence, which is pretty stock sandbox fare. While the GM is supposed to have 'holes' in her maps in order to accommodate players development of fiction, said maps could well be pretty extensive too. So, the approach to the established fiction will dictate the style of play to an extent.

DW, at least, is less about the players getting to establish facts about the world as it is about directing play into paths which engage with fiction that is related to what the players would like their characters to experience. So, for example, the "your brother is dead" thing probably wouldn't happen in DW because the GM is a 'fan of the players' and his job is to keep giving them material where they can both shine, and get into deeper trouble than they are already in. Thus killing off an avenue of development in those directions would usually be contrary to the GM's defined agenda. Of course it might still come out in play as an outcome, but in that case the action would move on to a more interesting/challenging/dangerous stage (IE maybe you now have to travel to the land of the dead to get your brother back!).
 

I use Into the Wyrd and Wild as the base for my OSR Wilderness rules. It uses a roles and camp loop that is broadly similar to the DW one, and puts resource management front and center by calling for regular consumption connected to a light but effective exhaustion mechanic, which I have looped into a bespoke rest mechanic generally. I'm using it in a system that has Usage Dice to track consumables, rather than counting individual portions, but it would work fine with either. I'm still ironing out the kinks, but on the whole I'm quite happy with it.
 

I must be missing something here - how is disliking magic item wish lists a dick move?

Or does the dick-move part lie in not fulfilling the player's adventure request? If done maliciously, I could see the dick part of it, but if the DM has set up a string of desert-based adventures and a player asks for something in the arctic, the player at best is going to have to wait. Even more so, perhaps, if other players have asked for undersea, jungle, and mountain adventuring after the desert bit is done.

That said, switching up the environment now and then is always a good idea. Desert, arctic, swamp, underground, mountain, jungle, maritime, forest - it's nice to vary it up some. My problem always lies in how to do this without either a) giving the PCs easy access to fast long-range travel or b) blipping them somewhere by fiat or c) having them spend potentially months of in-game time trudging from one place to another.

The reason c) is a problem for me is that if a party decides to spend months in transit I pretty much have to put them on hold while we play out what the other active parties in the game world get up to during that time.
I think there's an element here of just basic "how do we agree on the milieu?" If the game is a fairly limited magic kind of D&D setting (IE lower/mid-level D&D) then establishing the action in the desert probably precludes the other options from coming up, or at least constrains their appearance. If a player is complaining, after it was thoroughly established and agreed, on the desert being the primary location, that his Arctic Barbarian PC wants to 'head north' and the heck with other threads of the story, then something has gone amiss. Some of the things you mention might be possible fixes, but I would avoid the problem at the start, if possible.

I don't think your c) is actually a problem. Gygax discussed this in 1e DMG, and that seemed cogent. That is, such a trek can be played out at once and then simply represents the time commitment for those characters. If there's some obvious point of intersection with other PCs that must be played out, then perhaps those PCs also need to be advanced to the point in time in question. Of course this is all very much considering a fairly rigid Gygaxian Troupe Play kind of situation. IME few games are run that way nowadays. Even if there might be some limited form of it in one of my games, it would be pretty limited, and problems aren't likely to arise. Obviously in your case the players may find at some point they want/need to go run other characters for a while, but that is the price of playing in that style.
 

Again, in this mode of play, the player simply isn't assumed to be able to set an agenda that extensive into the setting. You can certainly have the agenda of wanting to find your brother, but what is going on with your brother is under the purview of the GM. Obviously in a game where that isn't a case, it might be a dick move if the player is expected to have that sort of agenda. Why people can't even entertain the thought of this, and see how for lots of people operating under this style of play, it isn't at all a dick move, I really can't understand.
I don't see how this is a useful response to my statement. How is it not a 'dick move' for the GM to state, after however many sessions of searching, that all you found was your brother's parched bones and he was dead 10 years? The GM has complete freedom to NOT DO THAT, so what would motivate that behavior? By what theory of play would it be a better move than something more interesting? It simply doesn't hold water. Even in the most old-school forms of play this is really not good DMing. Again, there's simply no reason for it, except a) a GM so utterly rigid in their conceptions that they can't slightly adjust some piece of lore that might imply this result (or just add some additional confounding factor to change its outcome) or b) a GM who is actively interested in quashing even the smallest show of initiative and independence on the part of a player. Neither of these are redeeming features of a DM...
 

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