A Question Of Agency?

[Fenris-77]

If agency is about having the ability to affect change in the world exactly the way you want to then I’d say agency in this definition is just a synonym for power.

IDK, I think that choice might be the better word. Even a newb-y 0 level git has all the choices in an open sandbox. Unless you're using 'power' to mean 'ability to'? Help a brother out here....

 

[Manbearcat]

The fact that humans in real life cannot sufficiently intervene in the death of a loved to save them from disease (trust me...I know all about this, I've lost many loved ones to disease, including a life/outlook altering, 22 month, gruesome battle with Glioblastoma) is not particularly apt to a discussion on TTRPG agency.

The two are not the same things at all.

If I was interested in actualizing a satisfying TTRPG experience about "trying to save a loved one from brain cancer", it wouldn't be what felt like the GM Force-fest that is endured in real life (despite setting all of my will and finances and mind against the inevitability that was coming). And it wouldn't remotely be of the kind of granularity of "if I swab her drying mouth with a moist swab because her salivary glands have failed, will that moralize her enough to die tonight so she doesn't have to endure another 3 weeks of this (and other horrors)."

I'm not being macabre here. I'm dead serious. A satisfying roleplaying game about being a caregiver/priest or merely someone who doesn't want to give up on a loved one will not include the sort of fiat/inexorable "Rocks fall, you die", lack of agency despite all efforts, reality of life that sometimes shapes these kinds of things. It would include the very real prospect of healing, it would abstract the unnecessary, and it would systemitize in a way that creates an integrated feedback loop where the emotions experienced and mental fortitude erected actually impact the physical fortitude of both the afflicted and the caregivers.

Leaving all of that up for exposition + theatrical amplification + GM decides sounds like the most horrible experience I could imagine (and yes, it maps pretty damn well to my real life experience!)!

My Life With Master would actually be the TTRPG template I would use for this. Its actually perfect.

 

[FrogReaver]

In a sandbox, much like real life, there’s not anything important that happens (that I’m aware of) that I cannot make a meaningful choice about.

I find out my brother is dead. There’s numerous meaningful choices I can make.

Im stuck in prison with no apparent escape. There’s numerous meaningful choices I can make.

if agency is about having the ability to make meaningful choices, then lack of control over a thing does not equate to a lack of agency. It’s only a lack of power.

 

[prabe]

The fact that humans in real life cannot sufficiently intervene in the death of a loved to save them from disease (trust me...I know all about this, I've lost many loved ones to disease, including a life/outlook altering, 22 month, gruesome battle with Glioblastoma) is not particularly apt to a discussion on TTRPG agency.

The two are not the same things at all.

If I was interested in actualizing a satisfying TTRPG experience about "trying to save a loved one from brain cancer", it wouldn't be what felt like the GM Force-fest that is endured in real life (despite setting all of my will and finances and mind against the inevitability that was coming). And it wouldn't remotely be of the kind of granularity of "if I swab her drying mouth with a moist swab because her salivary glands have failed, will that moralize her enough to die tonight so she doesn't have to endure another 3 weeks of this (and other horrors)."

I'm not being macabre here. I'm dead serious. A satisfying roleplaying game about being a caregiver/priest or merely someone who doesn't want to give up on a loved one will not include the sort of fiat/inexorable "Rocks fall, you die", lack of agency despite all efforts, reality of life that sometimes shapes these kinds of things. It would include the very real prospect of healing, it would abstract the unnecessary, and it would systemitize in a way that creates an integrated feedback loop where the emotions experienced and mental fortitude erected actually impact the physical fortitude of both the afflicted and the caregivers.

Leaving all of that up for exposition + theatrical amplification + GM decides sounds like the most horrible experience I could imagine (and yes, it maps pretty damn well to my real life experience!)!

My Life With Master would actually be the TTRPG template I would use for this. Its actually perfect.

As someone who's been through the experience of watching the long, slow, inevitable cancer death three times with loved ones (mother in my teens, GF's mother in my twenties, father-in-law a couple years ago) I can think of roughly nothing I want to roleplay less. It's brutal and heartbreaking, and depression lurks for me around any given corner, anyway.

 

[Manbearcat]

As someone who's been through the experience of watching the long, slow, inevitable cancer death three times with loved ones (mother in my teens, GF's mother in my twenties, father-in-law a couple years ago) I can think of roughly nothing I want to roleplay less. It's brutal and heartbreaking, and depression lurks for me around any given corner, anyway.

Interestingly, if systematized well, I think it would help me (and surely others with my cognitive framework) with some emotional healing. The philosophical fallout is not going to be undone by such a game. But I truly wonder if (again, done right) it might help with some emotional damage that people who endure these things suffer from.

Sort of like a "Many Worlds Instantiation Where Your Loved One Didn't Die (and horribly)." Doesn't sound terrible.

 

[FrogReaver]

As someone who's been through the experience of watching the long, slow, inevitable cancer death three times with loved ones (mother in my teens, GF's mother in my twenties, father-in-law a couple years ago) I can think of roughly nothing I want to roleplay less. It's brutal and heartbreaking, and depression lurks for me around any given corner, anyway.

Which is a very good argument for why having things happen to PC relatives that they can’t intervene is not necessarily the best idea.

But that’s not really the focus of my point. I’m not saying this is okay because it happens in the real world. I’m saying that such bad things happen to your relatives and friends isn’t typically viewed as a lack of agency on your part.

 

[FrogReaver]

IDK, I think that choice might be the better word. Even a newb-y 0 level git has all the choices in an open sandbox. Unless you're using 'power' to mean 'ability to'? Help a brother out here....

Choice to affect a particular change implies the same thing. If you have the choice then you have the power to implement it.

 

[prabe]

Interestingly, if systematized well, I think it would help me (and surely others with my cognitive framework) with some emotional healing. The philosophical fallout is not going to be undone by such a game. But I truly wonder if (again, done right) it might help with some emotional damage that people who endure these things suffer from.

Sort of like a "Many Worlds Instantiation Where Your Loved One Didn't Die (and horribly)." Doesn't sound terrible.

I have no doubt that some people--as you say, with certain cognitive framework/s--might find such a game helpful. It ... doesn't seem to me to be helpful for how my brain is wired--I think it's probable I would have some sort of chronic depression in any event, because genetics, and the idea of roleplaying to quasi-relive the experience seems like anhedonia on the hoof.

I've found something like solace in fiction, when things get bleached and blighted and dark. The Hollow Man by Dan Simmons is very much on the lines of your coda. If fiction helps, I highly recommend it.

 

[Manbearcat]

1a) Yes, exactly, and those choices are made pretty manifest in actual play (i.e. its not a surprise). I guess its a high res map, with a 6 mile hex set about 6 x 1 mile hexes wide (four fit comfortably on some big hex 8x11 hex paper I use). It's not super preppy though, it's a die drop system, and some of the smaller stuff could easily just be done on the fly. The system does it all prior though, so not like TB, more like classic dungeon design. The finished map looks like a flow chart, not a Dyson Logos production.

I do have enough random tables built into my game that I can quite easily run that on the fly entirely if I have to. My encounter process looks more like a discovery generator than it does a wandering monster table. It ranges from signs of life, to props and hazards, to actual monsters, with some conditions and resource management in for good measure.

Let me see if I can sketch the feedback loop for you. Food first:
1) Encumbrance is finite, so the players can only carry so much food and light (water isn't an issue except in deserts and whatnot). PCs can carry their STR in items total, and one ration at a d6 Usage takes up a slot (that has an average of 5 uses before it runs out).

2) That Usage Die is rolled once on a short rest, twice on a long rest (standard overnight) and three times on a full rest (a whole day). The latter two use the camp mechanics, so there is some chance to avoid those rolls (3d6 with each success on a 4+ obviating a roll)

If you have no rations you accrue exhaustion every rest that you go without, so minimum 1/day. Six levels of exhaustion is fatal. There is also a result on the random encounter charts that forces a rations roll (adventuring is hard work). The math on rations is that each one lasts roughly 2 days.

3) The party can Become Lost any time they stray from a marked trail or path, which would include larger scale exploration. They roll a d6 and have to get a 6 or better. There are three mods for this. A map or nav gear gives +1, a local guide gives +2, and a navigation or survival skill grants advantage. The amount of time the party spends lost depends on the reputation of the area (how civilized it is) and ranges from 1d6 hours to 3d6 days. After that time the party regains its bearings in a random location of the GMs choice. Every day spent lost requires 3 ration rolls per PC.

This is almost always a player choice, they have to leave the trail, but encounters can be a mitigating factor. This is an old school game, so encounter balance is a fairy tale. Running away is a necessary survival skill.

In practical terms there is no loop early in an adventure. The PCs have lots of food and probably at least a map, if not a trail. However, food can disappear fast on a bad day, and exhaustion can pile up quickly, so there's a point at which the party will have to pay careful attention to their travel decisions based on remaining food supplies. This requires an understanding of the math and system. It's simple enough in practice though.

To tie that directly to action declaration would happen at the macro level I suppose. Every travel day is a choice about do we push on or do we turn back, and there's a tangible point where there's real risk involved. The real risk is exhaustion of course. Not only does that accrue via running out of food, but it also accrues via HP depletion, and requires a Full Rest to clear (24 hours, which chews rations), and also comes with a random disadvantage for each level (cumulative).

Light is a different kind of issue. There is no darkvision in Black Hack, and no permanent, or even long duration light spell, so you absolutely must have light sources for dungeon exploration. When underground you roll a depletion die (Ud6) every turn for your light sources, so a single torch lasts somewhere between half an hour and two hours. There are panic rules for being caught in the dark, so running away, passing out, pissing yourself, that sort of thing. The level of danger is lower unless the party really pushed their luck exploring a larger underground complex. Running out of light deep underground is bad news. So, again, it's a risk vs reward call on the part of the party pretty much continuously. How much farther can we explore before we have to turn back?

Thanks for that. Questions:

1) Every item is 1 Load and Strength score = Load? How does this work out in play, do you think? Punishing enough? Decision-point-ey with respect to treasure enough? How do Porters/Pack Mules work?

2) What is the Coin: Supplies economy like? Too forgiving? Punishing enough?

3) What is the Exhaustion Level Refresh Rate?

4) HP Threshold for Level of Exhaustion?

5) Exhaustion Level able to be accrued within the Panic rules (if not 1st order than 2nd order)?

6) How can Rations and Light Complications be made manifest (eg "you got x result on action resolution or y came up on encounter table...A colony of bats explodes from a chimney and moves all around you in the tightening passage...the flame gutters...do you protect it and accept and risk burns or bites - roll Light to see if it survives and save against fire/bats...or do you hit the deck and let it go out to save yourself...or something else?").

 

[Fenris-77]

Choice to affect a particular change implies the same thing. If you have the choice then you have the power to implement it.

But not to succeed, or even have a chance. Sure, go fight the dragon at first level.