D&D General why do we have halflings and gnomes?

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

they simply are not great history no myths their gods other than garl and whats her name are box filler gods.

Garl Glittergold has a central myth involving Kurtulmak that pretty much every D&D player knows, which puts him ahead of nearly all other D&D gods.

Corellon Larethian's connection to Gruumsh is sometimes a thing, but Garl Glittergold being the Bugs Bunny to Kurtulmak's Elmer Fudd has been around since Dragon #62 in 1982.

The rest of the D&D gods wish they had as much character as Garl Glittergold.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

The Material Plane is Gnomish Heaven.

It is only my take on it, and I have a few more bits and pieces, since I wrote a whole Genesis for them, but it makes them infinitely interesting to me, because so many races have this instinctual "perfect heaven" that we have created for them, but the Gnomes are like "are you kidding? This place is amazing, why would we want to go somewhere else?"

This is vastly better than Bytopia, which is just about the most boring of the Outer Planes.

 

[Oofta]

No way they can go inside huh...

Well, let me think about this.

First of all, walls don't have to go around cities. You can build a wall around the farmland. Then farm behind the wall. No DnD setting really does this, but it is an option.

Also, um, dwarves. Dwarves live underground or in mountains almost exclusively. There isn't major tracts of farmland, and if there was, the dwarven homes are still inside the mountain. And they can all fit in there, since it is a hollowed out mountains.

Elves could actually be a very interesting example. If they were capable of farming in the forested environment, which they might be able to do if they focused on certain types of food, then they could go traditional and live up in the trees. Many of the threats are ground based, and living in a suspended city with an early warning system could easily allow for them to protect the populace.

And, I know you don't like this answer, but magic makes a massive difference. Via magic you can shrink a farmland needed to feed a population by half. Magic also allows for a far easier time in building tall structures. Most fantasy structures are much more vertical than medieval building. You could quite easily conceive of a city built up instead of out to give the needed space for the farmers. Or, you could go down. If the underdark is a thing in the setting, it is generally massive and covers most of the planet, since it is so dangerous it would need to be fortified, and that fortified underground area could be used for even more additional housing, allowing for even more people to fit inside the city walls.

Also, being daylight sensitive wasn't the point. The point was being able to see the monsters before they arrive. Since most enemies have Darkvision, they would generally prefer to arrive under the cover of night, when they can see and their targets can't.


None of this is impossible. It just is usually not bothered with so people can just pretend DnD looks exactly like medieval fantasy europe.

I give. You do you, have fun in your monster infected lands that are so dangerous that everyone everywhere has to huddle behind fortified walls at night to avoid being eaten by the grue. How all the commoners, much less their livestock, survive or why the fields aren't destroyed every night I'll leave to you.

Have a good one.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

Have there been many RECENT media appearances by small folk in fantasy works?

I mean, they were central figures in six blockbuster films, one of which won the Oscar for Best Picture so ... yes?

 

[Maxperson]

You mean the proficiencies they are clearly given by their statblocks? You realize the monster math bakes that into them right?

There are no proficiencies in their statblocks at all. The math includes it, but the DM can give an orc a mace, spear, dagger, sword, crossbow, or whatever. Orcs are not limited to only being proficient in greataxe and javalin, even though those are the only two weapons shown in the math.

But there is no "halfling" statblock in the monster manual. A halfling is not naturally proficient in those weapons. So if you want to make halflings proficient in all these weapons, you need to provide an explanation as to why they are proficient.

So, what gives Halflings their proficiency with these weapons? DM Fiat?

The PHB that says commoners(who are not PCs) are proficient with simple weapons.

"Clubs, maces and other weapons like what are found in the hands of commoners"

Not that, it says that commoners use them, not that they are proficient. You will not find a commoner statblock with a mace proficiency, or a quarterstaff proficiency, or a spear proficiency. So, it is likely that they were refering to the type of weapons, not that they were giving commoners proficiency with them.

Stuff deliberately taken out of context is of course, out of context. That sentence refers back to the one preceding it that says, "Most people can use simple weapons with proficiency." Not that it says people, not PCs, and then follows up with some of the weapons commonly found in the hands of commoners. By the way, the MM block on commoner only lists club, but clearly maces and other simple weapons they will be proficient with, per the PHB.

Feel free to continue to ignore the PHB RAW, though. I've no doubt that you will.

No, this is you making up rules because you don't like the real rules. Assuming that shortbows were a mistake and not the rules as written, when they have had six years to errata it, and never did, is either arrogant or facetious.

Additionally, looks at this list.

Daggers, Darts, slings, Quarterstaff, Light Crossbows.

That list is the sorcerer weapon proficiency list. Here is a list of every single simple weapon. I'll bold the sorcerers gains.

Club, Dagger, Greatclub, handaxe, Javelin, Light Hammer, Mace, Quarterstaff, Sickle, Spear, Light Crossbow, Dart, Shortbow, Sling.

Three classes have different proficiencies. Druids who are limited by their religion. Sorcerers and Wizards who are limited by their arcane specialization. All of the others can use simple weapons, just like commoners can.

So, in your theory that everyone in the world is supposed to get Simple Weapon proficiencies, and them not getting that is a mistake that the Devs have simply not bothered to fix for the past six years, how do you explain someone who has only 5 of the 14 simple weapons. Or, nearly 1/3 of the weapons. Was that a mistake too? Was the Druid a mistake? They have 9 out of 14.

My theory is that most, including commoners(both of that per RAW), can use simple weapons. Clearly you've found a few of the specific beats general exceptions.

What was it you just said in this post? Oh yeah

"that proficiency with simple weapons is for pretty much everyone."

What was my text you called a Strawman?

"Text does not give every single person in the world proficiency with simple weapons"

Jesus. You confirm the strawman in the midst of trying to deny it.

Pretty much everyone is "Most people"(again, per RAW), but not every single person. So yes, you perverted my argument and then argued against your perversion.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

I don’t think modern D&D has Halflings eating 7 meals a day, but it does have them weighing less than 50lbs as adults. They eat less.

Someone finally explained heart disease and diabetes to halflings between 2E and 3E.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

You can see the in-depth sourcebook dedicated to halfling lands and culture in Gazetteer 8 The Five Shires.

A fantastic entry in the GAZ series and one where Ed Greenwood really gets into halflings. He presents a mostly stable culture that, in many ways, conforms to both what the fans and detractors on this thread are saying, shows why it works, shows why it's worth defending, and sets out some good adventuring options for doing so. (I think it's also the first place he uses the word "hin" for halflings, incidentally.)

 

[Chaosmancer]

Yes, that's very different.

There isn't a solid answer to give. I mean, is it 52? 119? No way to know how many.

The less solid answer is this. Humans are the most expansive and inquisitive of the three races, so there are quite a few frontier towns and villages. Frontiers also tend to be where the vast majority of monster and adventurer opportunities are, so there is a disproportionate number of adventurers in those frontier towns and villages. Some of those would fall in love with the area and retire there. So I think every or nearly every human village and town will have some number of retired, active or both adventurers present.

Dwarves on the other hand tend to stay in Dwarven mountain cities where they can delve for ore and gems. Some of those cities open up to the Underdark which exposes them to threats from beneath, and of course there are external mountain entrances. However, God help any monster or force that tries a frontal assault on a Dwarven hold. They'll deserve what they are going to get. Less than humans, Dwarves would also have expeditionary forces that may set up small mining outposts. Those would be far more at risk. I think they would also have active and/or retired fighting types and maybe some clerics.

Elves are probably the least expansive and most decadent of the core races. I don't see them with many villages or towns at all, but their cities tend to be in large forests where monsters also dwell. However, Elven high magic, stealth and perception being what it is, I think monsters likely give those cities wide berth and they face little risk of attack. Being cities there are probably a great number of retired adventuring types or non-adventuring elves with "classes."(in quotes due to how NPCs work in 5e).

So, in answer to my question of how many elven, dwarven, and human towns and villages are safe... most of your answer is a that dwarves and elves don't have towns and villages, so it is a moot point.

And the rest is that all of them are safe. No population center is ever in danger from a monster attack because of retired adventurers. I mean, you never gave an answer beyond "yes, there would be retired adventurers" so I am left only to go forward with the idea that no place in DnD with a major population is in danger from monsters. The retired adventurers are always on hand to handle it.

That is certainly a different view of the world of DnD. One where no one is ever under threat.

It does not say "some villages." It says, "Some elders- especially those who once had fancy feet themselves- just shrug,." That's not "some villages," but rather "some of that villages elders."

Or you could read the rest of the text. You know, this part I specifically called out "Other villages are much more supportive of one of their members who demonstrates the urge to adventure, likely because some of their elders have gone into the world and returned to tell about it."

Other villages means that it only applies to some villages, not all of them. If the prescence of the elders who had adventured is the reason for the difference, then that other set of villages... wouldn't have those elders.

Seriously starting to wonder why I bothered to find evidence when I'm just going to have to keep repeating it because you don't read it the first time.

You are correct, and I think humans have the largest number. That said, Halfings are part of the 4 races that commonly make up adventurers, so they are common, not uncommon or rare. Something that is common can be found in abundance.

First off, again, you have no idea what the numbers are.

Secondly, the "four most common" does not mean it is in abundance. For example, the "four most common elements found in earth's crust" are Oxygen, Silicon, Aluminum and Iron. Iron is 5.6% compared to Oxygen being 46%

You are working entirely from assumptions, based on vague wording.

Not exactly. I'm saying that it's incomplete, probably because it's so blatantly obvious that 1) being listed under the goddess makes it a religious rite, and 2) that Halflings would have access to weapons. It would be silly, as well as prohibitively expensive for them to put every blatantly obvious thing into print. The book would be massive and be so costly that few would ever sell.

Except... it isn't a religious rite. It specifically calls these the actions the halflings take to defend themselves. You are assuming it must be a religious rite, because it makes no sense that they can defend themselves with only sticks and rocks.

Guess what my point was? That is makes no sense that they can defend themselves with only sticks and rocks.

You are agreeing with me, you just want to blame the writers for making mistakes or it all being incomplete instead of saying that what we have been given makes very little sense.

There's picture of a Halfling with a sword opening a chest and on the very page where it talks about sticks and stones being hurled at ogres, there is an ogre with stuff, including multiple large knives or daggers, being hurled. So from the pictures they clearly have weapons. There is also mention of cutting down trees, so they have axes to use.

That is a picture of a halfling adventurer in a dungeon. That is not a halfling commoner defending their home. False equivlances are false as you like to say.

Also, that Ogre is being chased by animated furniture. Those are cooking knives, which I agree would be useful, but that doesn't change the fact that "stabbing them with cooking knives" is not something we are told. Neither is "using magic to animate the furniture to attack the enemy" despite what the picture shows.

 

[Chaosmancer]

I give. You do you, have fun in your monster infected lands that are so dangerous that everyone everywhere has to huddle behind fortified walls at night to avoid being eaten by the grue. How all the commoners, much less their livestock, survive or why the fields aren't destroyed every night I'll leave to you.

Have a good one.

I guess you can have fun in worlds without monsters or threats, like the other side seems to be insisting is reality in DnD.

 

[Maxperson]

So, in answer to my question of how many elven, dwarven, and human towns and villages are safe... most of your answer is a that dwarves and elves don't have towns and villages, so it is a moot point.

And the rest is that all of them are safe. No population center is ever in danger from a monster attack because of retired adventurers. I mean, you never gave an answer beyond "yes, there would be retired adventurers" so I am left only to go forward with the idea that no place in DnD with a major population is in danger from monsters. The retired adventurers are always on hand to handle it.

That is certainly a different view of the world of DnD. One where no one is ever under threat.



Or you could read the rest of the text. You know, this part I specifically called out "Other villages are much more supportive of one of their members who demonstrates the urge to adventure, likely because some of their elders have gone into the world and returned to tell about it."

Other villages means that it only applies to some villages, not all of them. If the prescence of the elders who had adventured is the reason for the difference, then that other set of villages... wouldn't have those elders.

Seriously starting to wonder why I bothered to find evidence when I'm just going to have to keep repeating it because you don't read it the first time.



First off, again, you have no idea what the numbers are.

Secondly, the "four most common" does not mean it is in abundance. For example, the "four most common elements found in earth's crust" are Oxygen, Silicon, Aluminum and Iron. Iron is 5.6% compared to Oxygen being 46%

You are working entirely from assumptions, based on vague wording.



Except... it isn't a religious rite. It specifically calls these the actions the halflings take to defend themselves. You are assuming it must be a religious rite, because it makes no sense that they can defend themselves with only sticks and rocks.

Guess what my point was? That is makes no sense that they can defend themselves with only sticks and rocks.

You are agreeing with me, you just want to blame the writers for making mistakes or it all being incomplete instead of saying that what we have been given makes very little sense.



That is a picture of a halfling adventurer in a dungeon. That is not a halfling commoner defending their home. False equivlances are false as you like to say.

Also, that Ogre is being chased by animated furniture. Those are cooking knives, which I agree would be useful, but that doesn't change the fact that "stabbing them with cooking knives" is not something we are told. Neither is "using magic to animate the furniture to attack the enemy" despite what the picture shows.

You make it really hard to give you the benefit of the doubt when you Strawman me this badly and this often. Go back and re-read my post until you understand it. Then I will respond to the content of your response.