D&D 5E Final Boss (tm) for a level 11 campaign.

[Islayre d'Argolh]

Hi guys !

From your play experience, is an Adult Red Dragon (CR 17 Legendary monster) strong enough to fight all alone against a solid (but not optimized) party of 4 level 11 PC et provide a fun and challenging experience ?
If it's not, wich (CR + Legendary) combinaison would be better suited ?

Thanks for your help

 

[dave2008]

Hi guys !

From your play experience, is an Adult Red Dragon (CR 17 Legendary monster) strong enough to fight all alone against a solid (but not optimized) party of 4 level 11 PC et provide a fun and challenging experience ?
If it's not, wich (CR + Legendary) combinaison would be better suited ?

Thanks for your help

It depends, but that would be a tough challenge for my group.

Though if you need a more interesting challenge I will point you to my CR18 Red Dragon, Adult.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Such a fight is likely to be short and swingy. Either the dragon wins initiative and takes out at least one party member in round one, or it will be dead before the end of round two. Bad luck of two or more players failing their dragonfear saves could also lead to things going badly for the players.

I suggest giving the dragon spellcasting as per MM rules. Give it Shield and Counterspell. Don't put the fight in a location where the dragon can't fly out of reach, but makes sure it can use it's lair actions.

Hint to the players about countering the dragonfear if they haven't thought of that already.

 

[akr71]

The dragon is certainly tough enough, but if you take away its ability to get airborne, then you've severely weakened it from the get go. It is my opinion that a flying dragon out in the open is scarier that a less mobile one in its lair. If adventurers head into a dragon lair, they have an idea what they are up against - out in the open the dragon can just strafe, fly off and come back for another run when its breath weapon recharges, staying out of range as much as possible.

Has the party fought a dragon before (the characters, not the players)? Will they know to prepare for dragonfear?

You could always have them encounter the dragon out in the open - either they hear about an attack nearby or stumble upon it mid-attack. Whether it is attacking a town or merely poaching some cattle is irrelevant - the heroes run in to save the day - the dragon gets pissed off that it is interrupted, uses its breath weapon and flies off.

They can track it back to its lair with visions of immense piles of treasure filling their minds. If the party doesn't take the bait immediately, the survivors of the attack beg the heroes for help.

 

[Islayre d'Argolh]

Thanks guys for the answers
Actually my question is more about the "Legendary C17 monster" and less about the "Adult Red Dragon" : i could have ask the same question about the Androsphinx, for example.

Is (CR17+Legendary) well balanced enough for a perfect climax (against 4 level 11 PC) ?

 

[dave2008]

Thanks guys for the answers
Actually my question is more about the "Legendary C17 monster" and less about the "Adult Red Dragon" : i could have ask the same question about the Androsphinx, for example.

Is (CR17+Legendary) well balanced enough for a perfect climax (against 4 level 11 PC) ?

Well to be clear, the Legendary aspect doesn't, in theory, make the monster anymore challenging.

So you are asking if a CR 17 monster is a sufficient challenge for (4) lvl 11 PCs. In general my answer is yes, but it does depend on a lot of things. Some monsters are tougher for some groups than others. Some DMs are better at using monsters than others. Some players are better at tactics and group synergy than others. Without being able to account for all of these factors it is hard to say precisely.

From my own experience: I was able to barely TPK a group of (6) lvl 10 PCs with a CR 19 balor, so I think CR 17 monster for your group should be a good challenge.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Challenge ratings are not a precise guide. For example, a dragon's breath weapon makes it relatively more dangerous against a larger party of lower level characters than against a small party of higher levels.

There is also a psychological factor to take into account. If you tell players they are fighting a dragon, they will throw everything they have at it. If you are telling them they are fighting a flying lion with a human head they may well hold back to see what it can do.

 

[jgsugden]

Well to be clear, the Legendary aspect doesn't, in theory, make the monster anymore challenging.

I get what you're saying, but I would advise against a solo combat the ends a campaign that does not feature legendary resistance. A single failed save ending the climax is ... boring.

As for whether this is a decent challenge? Deadly encounter XP threshold would be 14,400 XP. This is 18,000. If they are fully rested before hand, this will likely not be a TPK, although they might lose a PC or two. I'd do the following for an end of campaign encounter where I was aiming for "they will likely win, but realistically might lose"

1.) Add a time consideration that forces them to get to and defeat the beast without an additional rest. I'd have them be forced to go in and take it on without letting them optimize spells for the encounter, etc...
2.) Add two encounters before the Dragon, making sure both are 'high hard' in XP and not fast combats (larger numbers of 40+ hp monsters, creatures that can evade attacks and spells, etc...). This builds anticipation, and makes them consider how to use resources.
3.) Make it a spellcaster. 5 6th level or lower spells. (All of my dragons are spellcasters and get to apply a free metamagic from the sorcerer class to each spell, usually quicken, which makes them horribly scary as they should be, rather than a one trick pony).

 

[Nebulous]

I would have some minions in the wings in case you need to them to bump up the challenge at the end of the 1st round if it looks like things are going south fast for the dragon. If not, hold off and don't introduce them until when and if you might need to. And like others said, not giving the dragon the advantage of using its incredible flying speed to elude melee attackers is a detriment. In the same vein, if your party is heavily ranged and line of sight is all they need then the dragon will still have some trouble, so blocking line of sight would be another option, or invisibility or mirror image. Or, going back to the minions, have them attack while the dragon moves position.

Also, give the dragon some magic, like a ring of shield for a +5 bonus and it deflects magic missiles.

 

[GMMichael]

Such a fight is likely to be short and swingy. Either the dragon wins initiative and takes out at least one party member in round one, or it will be dead before the end of round two. Bad luck of two or more players failing their dragonfear saves could also lead to things going badly for the players.

So take a party member out. They pop back up, like moles.

If OP says, "an adult red dragon walks up from behind the hill. It has black horns on its head, and something is glittering around its sizeable neck," then he has free reign to fudge whatever he wants, because there is an obvious change from what the Monster Manual says. Suddenly, the dragon doesn't die/flee until the DM wants it to.

I get what you're saying, but I would advise against a solo combat the ends a campaign that does not feature legendary resistance. A single failed save ending the climax is ... boring.

If that's the first roll, sure it's boring. But if half an hour of combat leads up to it - pretty cool!