OSR A Pathfinder Group Tries Old-School Essentials

[Mannahnin]

That middle ground is "editions".

• In B/X, any scores are fine.
• In AD&D (1E/2E), scores matter more so two 15+ may feel necessary.

I would say, rather, that in OD&D any scores are fine, and that B/X fills a middle ground between OD&D and AD&D, where scores matter somewhat but not as much.

 

[Voadam]

When DMs create up-teen million different methods of generating ability scores using confusing methods of character creation, that just reinforces the notion that "low ability scores stink and aren't fun to play." I'm not the one saying that - I'm saying that when DMs aren't cool with rolling 3d6 and want to lessen the possibility of getting low scores, then THEY are the ones who are saying that. And if they do feel that way, take away the random element and just give them the scores the DM wants instead of creating an obtuse method to make it look like there is actually a random determination.

The latter part does not seem to follow.

You can easily do higher scores while keeping randomness.
6+2d6 six times in order is still a random determination but a much higher average than 3d6 in order.

 

[Retreater]

The latter part does not seem to follow.

You can easily do higher scores while keeping randomness.
6+2d6 six times in order is still a random determination but a much higher average than 3d6 in order.

That doesn't seem to be an especially confusing system like I was referencing. Confusing systems are like ability score matrices, ability score drafting mini-games, etc. I think even the "character funnel" concept of DCC is a convoluted method of character creation.
If you can't make a character using a simple method in around 5 minutes, then it's not an OSR system (to me).

 

[Mannahnin]

Yeah, that's fair. I do think some of the more complex systems definitely have their roots in attempting to satisfy player desires which derive from a few different roots, which are all a bit contrary to OSR sensibilities. For example...

-Post-AD&D player expectations that higher ability scores are necessary
-Heroic fiction inspiring many players to want their characters to be significantly above average
-Concepts of intra-party balance which cause disappointment if a player has scores notably below one or more of their fellows

The card-drafting system definitely seems designed to mitigate the luck factor and the intra-party balance issue in a way which will make players accustomed to point-buy more comfortable. I'm sure you're right that a standard array would be a faster approach, but random generation definitely is one thing a lot of folks are looking for from OS, even if it's only a matter of aesthetics.

 

[Voadam]

Just a reminder that the AD&D systems for generating ability scores can be a bit convoluted:

1e AD&D DMG Page 11

GENERATION OF ABILITY SCORES
As AD&D is an ongoing game of fantasy adventuring, it is important to allow participants to generate a viable character of the race and profession which he or she desires. While it is possible to generate some fairly playable characters by rolling 3d6, there is often an extended period of attempts at finding a suitable one due to quirks of the dice. Furthermore, these rather marginal characters tend to have short life expectancy — which tends to discourage new players, as does having to make do with some character of a race and/or class which he or she really can’t or won’t identify with. Character generation, then, is a serious matter, and it is recommended that the following systems be used.
Four alternatives are offered for player characters:
Method I:
All scores are recorded and arranged in the order the player desires. 4d6 are rolled, and the lowest die (or one of the lower) is discarded.
Method II:
All scores are recorded and arranged as in Method I. 3d6 are rolled 12 times and the highest 6 scores are retained.
Method III:
Scores rolled are according to each ability category, in order, STRENGTH, INTELLIGENCE, WISDOM, DEXTERITY, CONSTITUTION, CHARISMA. 3d6 are rolled 6 times for each ability, and the highest score in each category is retained for that category.
Method IV:
3d6 are rolled sufficient times to generate the 6 ability scores, in order, for 12 characters. The player then selects the single set of scores which he or she finds most desirable and these scores are noted on the character record sheet.

But they can still all be done in about 5 minutes.

There are also the human class specific rolls method in Unearthed Arcana with specific stats getting 9d6, 8d6, 7d6, and so on down with the stat dice assignments depending on specific class. Dragon had a similar chart for demihumans that was not class dependent but had some allocation choices.

 

[Retreater]

But they can still all be done in about 5 minutes.

The entire character creation process, not just the ability score generation.

 

[Voadam]

The entire character creation process, not just the ability score generation.

Moldvay Basic was probably the best for quickest D&D character generation in my experience. Particularly if you did not use the explicitly optional encumbrance rules.

I often found buying equipment a particularly fiddly part of character creation in every edition of D&D that could be a bigger time investment than generating stats and writing down class/race stuff (even though it usually came down to armor, weapons, various fiddly other equipment).

 

[Alzrius]

Yeah, that's fair. I do think some of the more complex systems definitely have their roots in attempting to satisfy player desires which derive from a few different roots, which are all a bit contrary to OSR sensibilities. For example...

-Post-AD&D player expectations that higher ability scores are necessary

In fact, this trend reversed itself in AD&D 2E. If you look at the Player's Handbook section for "Rolling Ability Scores" it says:

Method I: Roll three six-sided dice (3d6); the total shown on the dice is your character’s Strength ability score. Repeat this for Dexterity, Constitution, Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma, in that order. This method gives a range of scores from 3 to 18, with most results in the 9 to 12 range. Only a few characters have high scores (15 and above), so you should treasure these characters.

All of the other methods (such as 4d6-drop-the-lowest) are listed under the "Alternative Dice-Rolling Methods" header.

The 2E Dungeon Master's Guide backs this up. Where it talks about "Hopeless Characters" (in terms of having really bad ability scores) it basically pushes back against the idea that low ability scores make a character hopeless, saying:

In truth, however, even an average character is okay. The only really hopeless character is the rare one that cannot qualify for any character class. The playability of all other characters is up to you.

Please note my use of affiliate links in this post.

 

[Campbell]

My favorite take assuming B/X style ability mods is Stars Without Number. 3d6 down the middle, but once that's done you can replace any score with a 14. That way you are still surprised by character creation, but can be at least above average in what you want to specialize in.

 

[Mannahnin]

In fact, this trend reversed itself in AD&D 2E. If you look at the Player's Handbook section for "Rolling Ability Scores" it says:


All of the other methods (such as 4d6-drop-the-lowest) are listed under the "Alternative Dice-Rolling Methods" header.

The 2E Dungeon Master's Guide backs this up. Where it talks about "Hopeless Characters" (in terms of having really bad ability scores) it basically pushes back against the idea that low ability scores make a character hopeless, saying:

That's a fun sidebar, Alzrius.

I always found that language in the 2nd Ed books ironic, given that they kept the high ability score requirements for bonuses almost or identical to 1st Ed, despite changing to 3d6 as default instead of 4d6 drop the lowest as was the baseline in 1st Ed!

It always seemed to me a design error, and that if they really wanted to move away from Gary's higher-powered intent for AD&D, they should have gone with the Moldbay or Mentzer ability score charts for bonuses.