D&D General They were all dead. The final arrow was an exclamation mark on everything that had led to this point.

[Minigiant]

And what DC would they be saving against?

EDIT: So, if their good saves are +21 before adjustments for items (presumably +15 for poor saves)
You've essentially make them immune to spells and effects with a 16 DC and less.

And?

A level 20 fighter would have a +21 to saves vs being knocked and +18 vs being poisoned.

Is that bad?

Are you saying a level 20 fighter should die to common mundane poison (DC 14) or be knocked over by Old McDonald the farmer (DC 12)?

 

[AnotherGuy]

And?

A level 20 fighter would have a +21 to saves vs being knocked and +18 vs being poisoned.

Is that bad?

Are you saying a level 20 fighter should die to common mundane poison (DC 14) or be knocked over by Old McDonald the farmer (DC 12)?

Firstly, the DC's in 5e typically range from 10 to 20. Typically.
Secondly, save or die in 5e?

A level 20 Fighter proficient in CON has +6 proficiency and +5 from their 20 CON. Never mind magical items. He isn't gonna die.

I'm thinking more in terms of being immune to many spells, energy drains and the like. I think the math is very broken in 5e, particularly at high levels and when you have a paladin who is giving everyone like +4 on ALL saves it is ridiculous.
So your example of like +21 would be exacerbating an already ridiculous problem within the game.

 

[Minigiant]

Firstly, the DC's in 5e typically range from 10 to 20. Typically.
Secondly, save or die in 5e?

A level 20 Fighter proficient in CON has +6 proficiency and +5 from is 20 CON. Never mind magical items. He isn't gonna die.

I'm thinking more in terms of being immune to many spells, energy drains and the like. I think the math is very broken in 5e, particularly at high levels and when you have a paladin who is giving everyone like +4 on ALL saves it is ridiculous.
So your example of like +21 is exacerbating an already ridiculous problem within the game.

My point is a fighter of level 15 or more should be immune to common poisons and diseases as well as being knocked down by low level foes.

A high level rogue would be immune to minor explosion and mental tricks.

At low levels it's fine. But Sir Jonathan the Golden Blade and King's Shield doesn't die from a cutpurse's toxins.

 

[AnotherGuy]

My point is a fighter of level 15 or more should be immune to common poisons and diseases as well as being knocked down by low level foes.

A high level rogue would be immune to minor explosion and mental tricks.

At low levels it's fine. But Sir Jonathan the Golden Blade and King's Shield doesn't die from a cutpurse's toxins.

I'm actually ok with all that, the problem is I'm not sure the monsters, spells etc in 5e scale enough to deal with +21's or even +15's.

 

[Minigiant]

I'm actually ok with all that, the problem is I'm not sure the monsters, spells etc in 5e scale enough to deal with +21's or even +15's.

Well it's a choice really.

Are you going to give the blanket immunity or just huge save numbers?

Huge save numbers is easier

 

[AnotherGuy]

Well it's a choice really.

Are you going to give the blanket immunity or just huge save numbers?

Huge save numbers is easier

I'm currently running a 15th-level group. They already have huge save numbers by my standards.

The only way I'm able to deal with that is by utilising the DMG's Degrees of Success/Failure, thus redesigning the monsters and their effects (including their spells) to keep things interesting/challenging within combat.
Fail by 6 or more = Critical Fail
Fail by 5 or less = Fail
Succeed by 5 or less = Partial Success
Succeed by 6 or more = Success

As an example, say they're facing a Medusa's Petrifying Gaze
Fail by 6 or more (DC 8 or less) = Petrified
Fail by 5 or less (DC 9-13 or less) = Restrained and has to make Petrification save
Succeed by 5 or less (DC 14-18)= Restrained with ADV on Petrification save
Succeed by 6 or more (DC 19+) = Not Restrained

Between an Artificer's Flash of Genius, a Paladin's universal +4 save and enchantments, saving throw DC's just fall short. If the 5e24 Fighter's Indomitably has changed to +level bonus on the 2nd roll that would make things even worse.

 

[W'rkncacnter]

A level 20 Fighter proficient in CON has +6 proficiency and +5 from their 20 CON. Never mind magical items. He isn't gonna die.

what fighter are you playing that has a 20 con...ever? you playing without feats or something?

 

[Mannahnin]

A month ago I'd have said that's just the way it is. It's tough but fair (No save sleep spell is a good balancer) and the chance of death makes the successes all the sweeter. Winning a battle or surviving a deadly trap by the skin of your teeth is such a good feeling.

Yet.

None of the original party remain.

Usually this wouldnt be a big deal in the sandbox style. The premise being "Go out and amass gold and glory." Problem is, I gave them a specific quest at one point to save a party member who's life is on a timer. No one is left alive to care except the cursed party member. Which again not really a big deal as its all apart of the gold and glory thing.

Yeah, that lack of continuity can be hard. That kind of longer plot may indeed be a better thing to introduce once the characters have a few levels under their belts and some more durability.

Reading some Dragonlance and Drizzt novels and you never worried about Drizzt or Tanis etc dying to a rando goblin or trap (lets not get to far into Tanis' BS death but the point stands). These characters didn't start at 1, more like 3 (and they had awesome stats). But yeah Raistlin or Regis survived their first few adventures. OSE/BX Fighter, Elf, Thief, Cleric, Dwarf, Halfling, etc et etc did not.

Yup. D&D assumes Raistlin and Tanis and Drizzt and all those folks are the ones who made their saves and never took enough damage to die. The Crystal Shard, I'm sure you'll remember, starts with Drizzt and Bruenor as experienced adventurers. Our drow buddy takes on a lair full of 5+5HD Verbeeg in I think the first combat encounter we see him in.

Now Im not saying 5th ed has it right but there has to be a middle ground. I'm looking forward to taking 5.5 for a spin and maybe figure out how to make the official adventures less of a cake walk. Dragonlance, Planescape, and Vecna to name 3 I currently own. Double the monsters? IDK

OSE works pretty well and it's easy to house rule up and down. Perhaps poison isn't almost always a death sentence? Or perhaps just start at level 3 or 4?

I tend to find that just a couple of tweaks are enough. Max HP at first level helps.

Having poisons that do other things is definitely an option, as is making antivenoms and neutralize poison potions available for purchase in the campaign. I think in my last campaign I made antivenom available for just 100-200gp (gives a re-roll on your poison save if applied promptly), and Mithridate to neutralize it entirely available for 1,000gp.

Death & Dismemberment tables are a common death mitigation house rule to give old school characters more durability without going quite as far as 5e. There are a bunch of them out there. For example:

Death, Trauma, and Retirement: I'm Gettin' Too Old For This Shit

So, with my current group, I'm trying something new. I'm adding mandatory retirement to my game. I'm softening my current Death and Dis...

goblinpunch.blogspot.com

OSR: Death and Dismemberment Table + Early Retirement Tables

This is my Death and Dismemberment table, outright stolen lovingly adapted from Arnold K's v23 table. It's more complicated than most of ...

coinsandscrolls.blogspot.com

My three year old school campaign I wrapped up a year ago was a mashup of B/X and 5 Torches Deep, and I used 5TD's death & dismemberment table. If you got dropped to 0HP you were unconscious, and had to be healed or bandaged within 1 minute or by the end of the fight for a battle. Once that was done, you rolled on the table. The original table only gives a 1 in 20 chance of death, which was too little for me, so I doubled that. I also created my own sub-table for serious injuries. It worked out as follows:

1-2. Dead
3. Enfeebled, lose 1d6 Strength
4. Shaky, lose 1d6 Dex
5. Weakened, lose 1d6 Con
6. Addled, lose 1d6 Int
7. Confused, lose 1d6 Wis
8. Disfigured, lose 1d6 Cha
9-13 Lost body part (original table is GM's choice but I made a sub-table, see below)
14-19 Disadvantage on all d20 checks until you get a night's rest.
20. Sudden recovery! Regain 1d8hp immediately.

The original rules simply say ability score damage takes "weeks of rest and care" to recover. My rule was that each week of bedrest restores 1d6 ponts, and that if you pay for a healer's care you can roll that with advantage.

My Lost body part/lingering injury sub-table:

Lasting Injuries / Severed Stuff
Roll D8 + D12
2 --------- 1.04 % ---- Lose an Eye -1 TH melee, -3 TH ranged, flanking enemies get +2 TH
3 --------- 2.08 % ---- Lose a Leg/Foot - half MV speed, -2 AC
4-7 ------ 18.75 % -- Limp - 5’ MV speed (can be cumulative)
8-11 ---- 32.29 % -- Minor Scar - No penalty! Record/describe location & story. [Can also be a lost finger]
12-13 -- 16.67 % -- Broken Ribs - Disadv. on all checks, half move rate, 1 mth to recover or Cure Serious W
14-15 -- 13.54 % -- Internal Injury - Disadv. all checks, 1/2 mv, DC11 Con to recover w/disadv, check 1x /week
16-17 -- 9.38 % ---- Horrible Scar - 1 permanent Charisma, record/describe location & story
18-19 -- 5.21 % ---- Festering Wound - As internal injury and -1 HP per Unsafe Rest, no HP recovery Safe Rest
20 ------- 1.04 % ---- Lose an Arm/Hand – Cannot use that limb to hold or use items.

Broken Ribs, Internal Injury, and Festering Wound can be fixed by a Cure Serious Wounds (Deviscerate in 5TD) in place of it healing HP damage. Campaign starting area note: In Restenford only Almax the Druid has 4th level divine spells. Will require both a donation and a pledged service.

Additionally, I made hirelings and henchmen less durable than PCs by requiring a separate roll for them before they could roll on the injury chart. Hirelings had a straight 1/4 chance of being dead when dropped to 0hp and henchmen 1/6.

Over the course of a three year campaign I permanently killed at least a few dozen hirelings, a handful of henchmen, and probably no more than a half dozen PCs. Death was an ever-present threat, but PC continuity was mostly kept intact.

I also know that save or die poisons, and undead level draining are keystones of B/X and old school game play, but I struggle with them as well. I've tried to work up systems (either using a countdown die system for poisons), or ability score drains for undead, to try to still make them scary, but allow the characters to have the ability to mitigate it somewhat. Find an antidote, run back to town to get healed, rest, whatever. I go back and forth on them.

I have stuck with them but...
a) Signposted them, making it pretty clear when a monster has poison or an energy-drainer is near, making it easier for players to choose to try to evade the encounter, fight at a distance, or use consumable magics like wands or something to bring the fight to an end faster.
b) Made mitigation (antivenom, mithridate, restoration) not too hard to come by.

 

[Lanefan]

And?

A level 20 fighter would have a +21 to saves vs being knocked and +18 vs being poisoned.

Is that bad?

Are you saying a level 20 fighter should die to common mundane poison (DC 14) or be knocked over by Old McDonald the farmer (DC 12)?

I'd be saying there should always be a chance of such, however small.

That's one of the things that makes the game fun; the low but ever-present chance of a long-shot upset.

 

[Minigiant]

I'd be saying there should always be a chance of such, however small.

That's one of the things that makes the game fun; the low but ever-present chance of a long-shot upset.

The chance is the Tier 1 obstacle stacking outside bonuses.

John the stableboy cannot trip Sir Henry Guardian Knight to the King in normal combat.

He'll need the sun to be in Henry's eye, a gods favor, a lucky charm, and the Peter the dumbs Cooper to do it.