D&D General Let's Talk About How to "Fix" D&D

[TheSword]

So, no matter how much adventuring the PCs do in the open world, they do not advance in level until they reach one of those milestones?

The milestones are linked to the world. What adventuring are you doing I’m Barovia that doesn’t include one of the locations or villains of that place?

 

[Reynard]

The milestones are linked to the world. What adventuring are you doing I’m Barovia that doesn’t include one of the locations or villains of that place?

We are talking about how milestone leveling works in an open world. Since I do not own CoS I am trying to understand how it does it. In Rime, there is significantly more context for 1st-3rd level characters than they are "allowed" to engage with before being shuffled off to the next part of the story. They don't earn XP, they just level after engaging with X number of these side quests and then don't gain anything more from continuing to explore Ten Towns.

I gather that CoS does not work that way, but I cannot figure out from your description how it is arranged. So I asked whether to not there was content represented that did not set off a milestone. You said that the players could go do anything in CoS and approach any part of the adventure, side quest or main plot, however they want. That's great. But how do the milestones factor in? If literally everything has a "milestone value" to it, it isn't milestone leveling -- it is quest rewards rather than granular encounter based rewards. If it is milestone leveling that means the PCs have to do specific things in a specific order to gain levels and unlock the next part of the adventure. Which is it?

 

[Weiley31]

And take the gnomes with you on the way out!

ESPECIALLY if he's a Paladin.

 

[Weiley31]

For Solos, I advocate that they have a a certain amount of the fighter's Second wind ability depending on their a type. A brusier type solo boss would have two uses of a Second Wind that restores their health to full. A Spellcaster solo may have one use of a full HP restore Second Wind. BBEG's may have up to three.

 

[TheSword]

We are talking about how milestone leveling works in an open world. Since I do not own CoS I am trying to understand how it does it. In Rime, there is significantly more context for 1st-3rd level characters than they are "allowed" to engage with before being shuffled off to the next part of the story. They don't earn XP, they just level after engaging with X number of these side quests and then don't gain anything more from continuing to explore Ten Towns.

I gather that CoS does not work that way, but I cannot figure out from your description how it is arranged. So I asked whether to not there was content represented that did not set off a milestone. You said that the players could go do anything in CoS and approach any part of the adventure, side quest or main plot, however they want. That's great. But how do the milestones factor in? If literally everything has a "milestone value" to it, it isn't milestone leveling -- it is quest rewards rather than granular encounter based rewards. If it is milestone leveling that means the PCs have to do specific things in a specific order to gain levels and unlock the next part of the adventure. Which is it?

Yes, random encounters on the road, small locations that wouldn’t merit leveling up anyway. Also encounters that can lead to greater things and represent hooks or an ‘in’ to a particular NPC or location.

 

[Reynard]

Yes, random encounters on the road, small locations that wouldn’t merit leveling up anyway. Also encounters that can lead to greater things and represent hooks or an ‘in’ to a particular NPC or location.

Yeah, I don't understand why they wouldn't just award XP. Again it is just preference: I find milestone leveling to be arbitrary and reduce player agency, and in the case of the way you describe CoS, convoluted for little benefit.

 

[TheSword]

Yeah, I don't understand why they wouldn't just award XP. Again it is just preference: I find milestone leveling to be arbitrary and reduce player agency, and in the case of the way you describe CoS, convoluted for little benefit.

Well you haven’t read the adventure. Nice that you’ve kept an open mind and though.

 

[fearsomepirate]

Yes, random encounters on the road, small locations that wouldn’t merit leveling up anyway. Also encounters that can lead to greater things and represent hooks or an ‘in’ to a particular NPC or location.

If the small encounter doesn't lead to either meaningful loot or facilitate access to the milestone, a lot of players will regard it as a waste of time. And the thing about 5e is that you really can't hand out too much loot, so you can't reward too much meandering and dithering. In a typical 15-level adventure, you can offer maybe 6 or 8 extra side quests with interesting magic items. Without XP, the only reward for fighting a random purple worm in OotA if you're doing milestone leveling is "you didn't die." There is absolutely no good reason to go worm-hunting if you're a bit underleveled. The risk is death. The reward is nothing. Thus, the tactically correct decision in any wandering monster encounter is to flee, since fighting wastes precious twice-a-month play time and gives you nothing in return. Players can and do figure this out.

The different incentive structure of XP-based leveling facilitates design where the players engage on their terms, and decide for themselves whether the reward for poking about in this cave or slaying this monster is worth both the time and risk, and at what point they feel confident to spelunk deeper in the dungeon or push further into the frontier. Having DMed both with the same players, there is a world of difference in how they behave in the context of different incentive structures.

 

[TheSword]

If the small encounter doesn't lead to either meaningful loot or facilitate access to the milestone, a lot of players will regard it as a waste of time. And the thing about 5e is that you really can't hand out too much loot, so you can't reward too much meandering and dithering. In a typical 15-level adventure, you can offer maybe 6 or 8 extra side quests with interesting magic items. Without XP, the only reward for fighting a random purple worm in OotA if you're doing milestone leveling is "you didn't die." There is absolutely no good reason to go worm-hunting if you're a bit underleveled. The risk is death. The reward is nothing. Thus, the tactically correct decision in any wandering monster encounter is to flee, since fighting wastes precious twice-a-month play time and gives you nothing in return. Players can and do figure this out.

The different incentive structure of XP-based leveling facilitates design where the players engage on their terms, and decide for themselves whether the reward for poking about in this cave or slaying this monster is worth both the time and risk, and at what point they feel confident to spelunk deeper in the dungeon or push further into the frontier. Having DMed both with the same players, there is a world of difference in how they behave in the context of different incentive structures.

Well you’re making a big assumption there. In reality many of these encounters don’t require a monster slain. The ‘reward’ can also be information, influence with other people, or the knowledge of having done a good deed, or even survival.

It’s very shortsighted to see the only rewards as XP or Treasure.

 

[fearsomepirate]

Well you’re making a big assumption there. In reality many of these encounters don’t require a monster slain. The ‘reward’ can also be information, influence with other people, or the knowledge of having done a good deed, or even survival.

It’s very shortsighted to see the only rewards as XP or Treasure.

I'm speaking from experience and assuming very little. Most of what you described would be classified as either a railroad stop or a roadblock. Going out into the wilderness solely to experience a main-quest-irrelevant side-story, with no material reward, is something that will be seen by many players as you wasting their time, and once they realize that's all there is, they will start actively avoiding such quests (again, speaking from experience). Ultimately, none of what you described fundamentally alters the railroad-like nature of milestone-based gaming.

Milestones are gates. They're railroad stops. There is nothing morally wrong with that, but how players become more powerful fundamentally shapes the kinds of adventures you can run. If you rebuilt something like Temple of Elemental Evil with milestones instead of treasure based XP, it fundamentally alters what the adventure even is. In fact, giving XP for monster-slaying instead of treasure-finding so strongly alters the nature of the adventure that I think it is positively required for you to use the AD&D experience system, regardless of what other system you use for combat, skills, and so on.

On the flip side, XP really doesn't work that great for chapter-based, linear storybook adventures, which is why milestones have become so popular in the first place. In other words, XP is great for Castle Greyhawk, and not so great for Storm King's Thunder.