D&D General Old School DND talks if DND is racist.

[DEFCON 1]

Are you not an older white man who just talked about racism? Did you not just lecture about being dismissive, while...being dismissive?

Seriously, the excuses people use to not listen to potential dissent before dismissing that dissent is disappointing. If the color of their skin makes you think they cannot have an opinion worth listening to, maybe that's your issue and not theirs. If their age alone makes you think they cannot have an opinion worth listening to, maybe that's your issue and not theirs. Perhaps judging them on their color of their skin or age is not an admirable trait you should be using, in itself, as a means of declaring a human's opinions not worthy of consideration?

I think both of you have a point.

I think you are right in that using someone's age or skin color as a reason to not listen to them is rather silly and dismissive. Everyone can have a say.

But at the same time I think Umbran is right in that if you aren't a part of a group that is claiming a problem, your voice doesn't get to have more power in the conversation in order to say the problem isn't real. We should take your outsider status to this conversation with a grain of salt. I'm not saying your voice shouldn't be heard... but we should at least acknowledge that you aren't necessarily seeing things truly as they are because you aren't inside the situation. And hopefully (general) you can recognize that while you might try to visualize walking in another person's shoes... you aren't ever going to be actually wearing them, so don't make definitive statements on whether or not they fit.

 

[Sacrosanct]

And let me just say to anyone who thinks D&D gamers don't have bigots in our fandom, one of the largest social sites that caters to the OSR on the internet has posters who not only aggressively espouse their bigotry with blatant racist and sexist phrases, but with the events of the past few years, actively endorse and support killing other people who don't agree with them, and not only are they not sanctioned on these popular boards, but endorsed by the moderation team, let alone tacit approval by most of the members. (many of you are probably also members there and know exactly what I'm talking about)

so yeah, finding bigotry in our community is easy. Which again, is very sad. And IMO, cannot simply be ignored because it doesn't impact me. As a while male, that would be me using my inherent privilege to ignore how others not like me are being disparately treated. So I'll call it out when I see it, and as an indie publisher who is a fan of the OSR, use my tools and resources to fight it in the OSR when I see it by working to make my products better, and more inclusive.

 

[Shadowdweller00]

As an old school gamer myself, and someone who enjoys the OSR and TSR era D&D (started in 81, and kept playing AD&D as my preferred edition all the way up to 2012 when the 5e playtest came out, and I still play it), I have noticed a disturbing trend that the OSR is becoming worse and worse with the number of racists/bigots in that fandom. Maybe it's a reaction to modern D&D becoming more inclusive so they rally around the OSR, but you can't be part of a large OSR group online anymore without quickly seeing people parrot bigoted statements and ideas. And as a fan of the OSR, that both saddens me, and angers me.

I can't help but notice that KKK titles have, for at least a century and a half, been... strongly evocative... of fantasy and myth: Grand Wizard, Goblins, Cyclops, Ghouls, Hydras, Titans. Maybe it's just that there's a lot of white supremacists who are attracted to reducing complex, thinking populations and nuanced issues into two-dimensional fairy-tale epics where one side is incorruptibly pure and the other is irredeemably evil.

 

[wingsandsword]

Orcs are an interesting case. They don't exist in historic folklore. There are a couple of poetic references, to the best of my recollection, before Tolkien invented the species. In Beowulf, from which he drew the name, orcneas is just a generic reference to an evil spirit or wicked creature.

There are a handful of literary references predating Tolkien where they seem to be used interchangeably with ogres, as brutish, hostile humanoids that threaten humans. Tolkien certainly popularized them, but didn't invent them whole cloth. The etymology of Orc comes from the same origin as Ogre, and before Tolkien, the two were sometimes used interchangeably.

Yes, it's a wiki article, but someone there put in a lot of effort tracking down pre-Tolkien literary references to Orcs (in the same sense as Tolkien used them, as barbaric and monstrous humanoids, instead of just a vague and poetic term for a monster) Orc - Wikipedia

 

[DEFCON 1]

One more thing that I think is important to note...

What constitutes an -ism and an -ist... changes over time.

I wonder if perhaps those of us who are members of Generation X and older (of which I am myself) are looking at today's society through the lenses we used to look at society when we were growing up? I mean for me personally... I look at how my parent's generation and my grandparent's generation acted when I was a youngster, and I sometimes can't help but think "Wow, things were WAY WORSE for all the different types of people back then! Our young people today have no idea how good they have it!"

Which might be true in a certain objective state... but it doesn't mean by any stretch that just because things might be "better" now comparatively... doesn't mean they are actually GOOD. There is still SO MUCH that could be better for everyone. And it is the highlight of personal arrogance to believe that what is happening right now is so good that nothing has to change.

Or more to the point, that YOU don't have to change.

"I saw how bad things were when I was a kid and I learned from all that... so how I am now is GREAT! Why can't people recognize that?"

And the answer of course is that none of us are as good as we might think. Especially because a lot of the problems come from who we are when we AREN'T actually thinking about them. Unconscious racism, sexism, transphobia etc. are things. So let's all try and stop denying that our s*** don't stink. Because it does. The only difference is that we've been living in it for our entire lives and thus we just don't notice the odor anymore.

 

[Mannahnin]

There are a handful of literary references predating Tolkien where they seem to be used interchangeably with ogres, as brutish, hostile humanoids that threaten humans. Tolkien certainly popularized them, but didn't invent them whole cloth. The etymology of Orc comes from the same origin as Ogre, and before Tolkien, the two were sometimes used interchangeably.

Yes, it's a wiki article, but someone there put in a lot of effort tracking down pre-Tolkien literary references to Orcs (in the same sense as Tolkien used them, as barbaric and monstrous humanoids, instead of just a vague and poetic term for a monster) Orc - Wikipedia

Sure, yeah, I'm aware of those. The couple of references seem to be a variant term for an ogre. Maybe I'm splitting hairs to distinguish between a term for a singular monster (ogre/orke) and a species of brutish footsoldiers to an evil overlord. But it's really only Tolkien's invention which has any parallel at all with racism, because he's the one that made it a species (of sorts).

 

[Sacrosanct]

I can't help but notice that KKK titles have, for at least a century and a half, been... strongly evocative... of fantasy and myth: Grand Wizard, Goblins, Cyclops, Ghouls, Hydras, Titans. Maybe it's just that there's a lot of white supremacists who are attracted to reducing complex, thinking populations and nuanced issues into two-dimensional fairy-tale epics where one side is incorruptibly pure and the other is irredeemably evil.

I also have a majority germanic/nordic heritage. so yeah, nazis and white nationalists co-opting my heritage is nothing new. Thanks Hitler!

 

[wingsandsword]

Sure, yeah, I'm aware of those. The couple of references seem to be a variant term for an ogre. Maybe I'm splitting hairs to distinguish between a term for a singular monster (ogre/orke) and a species of brutish footsoldiers to an evil overlord. But it's really only Tolkien's invention which has any parallel at all with racism.

I think that's beyond splitting hairs.

In a D&D context, the difference between ogres and orcs is literally just one is a little taller and even stronger. They're both brutish humanoids. . .like people, except more muscular, and taller, and hairier, and uglier, and scary and violent. In a generic D&D context, just add a few more hit dice to the Orc and you've got an Ogre.

Humanity has always demonized the outsider, treated the invader as something less than human. Orcs are a fantasy device that is the embodiment of many millennia of humans seeing invading, barbaric, brutish hoards on the horizon. They stand in for the armies on the march in the World Wars. . .or for the Mongolian Horde, or the Germanic and Celtic tribes that Rome fought against, or the Ottoman Empire and their invasion of the Byzantine Empire and Eastern Europe.

They aren't a racist stand-in for any human population, they're a generic stand in for how humans have always seen invaders and hostile outsiders. . .but they allow the game to depict the hostile, foreign, barbaric enemy WITHOUT making it a matter of demonizing any real or fictitious human group.

 

[Deathmaster Banak]

Well, yeah. I mean, not the Satanic part, but...

D&D is people. Lots of people. And, much as we may like to think otherwise, there's nothing about RPGs that selects against any of the bad traits of humanity.

So, racism, sexism, and such - you'll find them here, like you'll find them anywhere. The question for each of us is whether we dismissively wave it away, or whether we look at it and work to change that.

I haven't watched the video yet, but... a couple of older white men talking about racism? Not sure that's going to be relevatory.

"a couple of older white men talking about racism? Not sure that's going to be relevatory (sic)."
Dismissing people, opinion unheard, due to their skin colour and age, isn't that the very definition of bigotry?

 

[BookTenTiger]

I think that's beyond splitting hairs.

In a D&D context, the difference between ogres and orcs is literally just one is a little taller and even stronger. They're both brutish humanoids. . .like people, except more muscular, and taller, and hairier, and uglier, and scary and violent. In a generic D&D context, just add a few more hit dice to the Orc and you've got an Ogre.

Humanity has always demonized the outsider, treated the invader as something less than human. Orcs are a fantasy device that is the embodiment of many millennia of humans seeing invading, barbaric, brutish hoards on the horizon. They stand in for the armies on the march in the World Wars. . .or for the Mongolian Horde, or the Germanic and Celtic tribes that Rome fought against, or the Ottoman Empire and their invasion of the Byzantine Empire and Eastern Europe.

They aren't a racist stand-in for any human population, they're a generic stand in for how humans have always seen invaders and hostile outsiders. . .but they allow the game to depict the hostile, foreign, barbaric enemy WITHOUT making it a matter of demonizing any real or fictitious human group.

I agree that in D&D orcs are not being used as an allegory or replacement for one kind of human being. At the same time, the way orcs (and drow, and elves, and halflings...) are described uses the practice of ascribing the values of a culture to one singular "race." And whether this race or culture is real or imaginary, the act of ascribing the values of a culture to a single race is, in itself, a harmful practice.

The big difference to me is in the following two models:

A) orcs are barbaric raiders

B) there are barbaric raiders, and some of them are orcs

In example A, the "race" of orcs is being defined by the values of a culture (barbaric raiders). In B, the values of a culture are separated from race.

Obviously no orcs in real life are being harmed by being depicted as barbaric raiders. But I would argue that the very act of ascribing the values of a culture to a single race is harmful, and it's harmful to those who act it out playing the game because it's an unhealthy practice.