D&D General Old School DND talks if DND is racist.

[DemoMonkey]

"This has "old man yells at cloud" energy written all over it"

That is a lovely turn of phrase and I am adding it to my lexicon immediately!

 

[Oofta]

I think we are making this more complicated than it has to be, largely because a lot of people have been personally affected by these issues and thus we're passionate about it. That, however, tends to lend towards hyperbole.

It's totally understandable why many people who love X, when told that X has elements of racism or bigotry, will take a defensive stance because they feel like you're associating them with the racism and bigotry directly, and that's not really being done. I really haven't seen any who has made comments like "Old school D&D has some racist or sexist elements" also say "fans of old school D&D are racists and bigots."

so if we avoid that strawman, understandable as it is for someone to feel that way (because we're human), then we can have a more productive conversation.

Let's admit some truths though. Old school D&D was dominated by white males. Mostly teenagers. That alone means that a whole lot of things that could be offensive weren't even noticed. There was no malice there. Or push to be racists or sexists. But by the very virtue of being white male dominated in the 70s and 80s, a lot of problematic things that impact people who aren't white males existed. We (white males) didn't notice them because we weren't impacted by them or saw how they impacted others. That doesn't make us bigots or racists. That makes us uninformed. And that isn't a bad thing. The only way it becomes bad is if we do become informed, yet continue to engage in problematic behavior. I certainly am not the same person I was when I was 13 in the mid 80s.

some were obvious, like strength caps for women and nipples through chain mail bikinis. But some aren't so obvious to the white male, like how dark skinned races are almost all inherently evil. Or the tropes and stereotypes of Asians we saw.

So IMO, in order to have productive discussion, we need to admit that others who may be impacted have a valid point, and at least hear them out. If you've got several people from group X saying that Y aspect of this game is problematic to their group, listen as to why, because more often than not they will have a point. That's not being too PC, or caving into social justice warriors, or whatever. It's trying to understand others and make the game be enjoyable by everyone. Empathy. Putting yourself in their shoes for a minute.

But there's also a leap from A to Z. We go from a matriarchy run by voluptuous black skinned female elves that are evil where even the exceptions to the drow are evil are all male* to "any race that is bipedal must be of any alignment".

Are there issues? Good grief, yes. Particularly if you go back a few decades. Does that mean that no entry in the monster manual should ever have a default alignment of evil? Personally, I don't think so.

*That I know of, I don't read a lot of FR fiction any more.

 

[Mind of tempest]

I think we are making this more complicated than it has to be, largely because a lot of people have been personally affected by these issues and thus we're passionate about it. That, however, tends to lend towards hyperbole.

It's totally understandable why many people who love X, when told that X has elements of racism or bigotry, will take a defensive stance because they feel like you're associating them with the racism and bigotry directly, and that's not really being done. I really haven't seen any who has made comments like "Old school D&D has some racist or sexist elements" also say "fans of old school D&D are racists and bigots."

so if we avoid that strawman, understandable as it is for someone to feel that way (because we're human), then we can have a more productive conversation.

Let's admit some truths though. Old school D&D was dominated by white males. Mostly teenagers. That alone means that a whole lot of things that could be offensive weren't even noticed. There was no malice there. Or push to be racists or sexists. But by the very virtue of being white male dominated in the 70s and 80s, a lot of problematic things that impact people who aren't white males existed. We (white males) didn't notice them because we weren't impacted by them or saw how they impacted others. That doesn't make us bigots or racists. That makes us uninformed. And that isn't a bad thing. The only way it becomes bad is if we do become informed, yet continue to engage in problematic behavior. I certainly am not the same person I was when I was 13 in the mid 80s. I can admit that some of the things I liked and never thought as problematic back then was because of how society viewed things back then and how I wasn't knowledgeable of how it could detrimentally affect others. I can still enjoy THAC0, and Trampier, and save or die, and also admit that strength caps for women PCs was a bad thing.

some were obvious, like strength caps for women and nipples through chain mail bikinis. But some aren't so obvious to the white male, like how dark skinned races are almost all inherently evil. Or the tropes and stereotypes of Asians we saw.

So IMO, in order to have productive discussion, we need to admit that others who may be impacted have a valid point, and at least hear them out. If you've got several people from group X saying that Y aspect of this game is problematic to their group, listen as to why, because more often than not they will have a point. That's not being too PC, or caving into social justice warriors, or whatever. It's trying to understand others and make the game be enjoyable by everyone. Empathy. Putting yourself in their shoes for a minute.

true it is just slightly complicated to fix.

 

[turnip_farmer]

Like how dark skinned races are almost all inherently evil

No - that one was immediately obvious in the 1970s. Note that Warhammer's Dark Elves have always had exactly the same skin colour as High Elves. Drow were weird and uncomfortable the day they were published.

 

[Alzrius]

We go from a matriarchy run by voluptuous black skinned elves that are evil where even the exceptions to the drow are evil are all male*

*That I know of, I don't read a lot of FR fiction any more.

Liriel Baenre comes to mind.

 

[Mind of tempest]

No - that one was immediately obvious in the 1970s. Note that Warhammer's Dark Elves have always had exactly the same skin colour as High Elves. Drow were weird and uncomfortable the day they were published.

yeah, how did that get past people?

 

[Sacrosanct]

But there's also a leap from A to Z. We go from a matriarchy run by voluptuous black skinned elves that are evil where even the exceptions to the drow are evil are all male* to "any race that is bipedal must be of any alignment".

Are there issues? Good grief, yes. Particularly if you go back a few decades. Does that mean that no entry in the monster manual should ever have a default alignment of evil? Personally, I don't think so.

*That I know of, I don't read a lot of FR fiction any more.

I don't disagree with that. But when you come from a starting point of "all dark skinned races are evil", you really need to work harder to get past that, and changing to "most dark skin races aren't evil, but these ones are" doesn't really fix the issue because of the history and baggage still attached, particularly if you don't have fair skinned races in your game that are also inherently evil. if I were a PoC, I'd probably take that as lip service rather than desire for actual change.

true it is just slightly complicated to fix.

I'd say it's a lot complicated to fix because everyone has strong feelings, and we don't always agree.

 

[Argyle King]

I'll simply say what I've said in similar threads before.

I'm curious to see how contemporary views on morality are balanced against placing a tangible point (XP) value on killing other beings.

I am glad to increase diversity in the game. I am glad to hear the community have conversations concerning problematic elements of gaming culture.

At the same time, some of how I see those conversations approached echoes the reasoning behind the Satanic Panic and similar things during my youth.

Having the conversations: good
How they're being had: perhaps not good

 

[Alzrius]

yeah, how did that get past people?

I'm guessing it had something to do with the svartálfar and/or Dökkálfar and D&D trying to bring as much fantasy (be it from mythology, pulp fiction, etc.) as it could under its umbrella.

 

[Necrozius]

well... welcome to the club. Now you know how the other side has felt for hundreds of years.

Ah I was wondering then the conversation was going to come to this point. The concept of Original Sin has a secular version these days {i.e., "judge me not based on my deeds and beliefs, but on the sins of my ancestors").

All around this topic is full of depressing toxicity. It's not enough to be aware and respectful of historical injustices on marginalized peoples. You have to make up for it, here an now, because of the lottery of your birth. If you suffer hardship or injustice, tough naughty word, others had it worse before you.

Yikes.