D&D General Old School DND talks if DND is racist.

[Oofta]

Liriel Baenre comes to mind.

Like I said, I don't pay much attention to FR any more, most of the novels I've read were Salvatore. There's Drizzle Drizzt of course and I seem to remember a few other male non-evil drow in his novels and in mods.

 

[Oofta]

yeah, how did that get past people?

I assume they were based on Norse mythology; the blackness in the myths had nothing to do with their skin color in mythology though from my understanding. Their hearts were as black as coal.

 

[DEFCON 1]

Ah I was wondering then the conversation was going to come to this point. The concept of Original Sin has a secular version these days {i.e., "judge me not based on my deeds and beliefs, but on the sins of my ancestors").

All around this topic is full of depressing toxicity. It's not enough to be aware and respectful of historical injustices on marginalized peoples. You have to make up for it, here an now, because of the lottery of your birth. If you suffer hardship or injustice, tough naughty word, others had it worse before you.

Yikes.

Yeah. That's a valid point. But so what?

At the very least, if the actions taken against Black people, women, the LGTBQIA, the differently abled etc. had ended... maybe we'd be less inclined to say 'C'est la vie!' if there was the occasional happenstance of a White person (or Male person, or Straight person, or Cis person, or Abled person) being persecuted unfairly.

But it hasn't. In fact, all those people STILL suffer for who they are, and yes I'm willing to say still in greater numbers and in more violent fashion than the Cis Straight White Male establishment. So, yeah, it feels bad for those of us in that group when we see it happen to one of "our number"... but I'd still take being yelled at or called names or be "cancelled" over being physically assaulted and/or possibly killed. And I have a harder time feeling sympathy "for us" in this situation. But you know... that's just me.

 

[Sacrosanct]

I assume they were based on Norse mythology; the blackness in the myths had nothing to do with their skin color in mythology though from my understanding. Their hearts were as black as coal.

As a white kid in the 70s and 80s, I certainly didn't see the racism in it, or even notice how it was problematic. And I wasn't alone. I was a white kid around a bunch of other white kids with very little exposure to black people, and I had centuries of lore that associated black/dark with evil/bad. I never even thought to question how that could be problematic, or to question why our folklore could have been rooted in problematic tropes. It wasn't until I became an adult and travelled the world and got new experiences before I started to question these things. I think my experience as a white male in the 70s and 80s is not unusual. Goes back to my point that people who didn't see anything potentially wrong with dark skinned races being evil doesn't make them racists. We were just uninformed and didn't know better. It's how we handle things once we become informed that matters.

 

[Sacrosanct]

Ah I was wondering then the conversation was going to come to this point. The concept of Original Sin has a secular version these days {i.e., "judge me not based on my deeds and beliefs, but on the sins of my ancestors").

All around this topic is full of depressing toxicity. It's not enough to be aware and respectful of historical injustices on marginalized peoples. You have to make up for it, here an now, because of the lottery of your birth. If you suffer hardship or injustice, tough naughty word, others had it worse before you.

Yikes.

Who is telling you that being aware and respectful of injustices on marginalized people is not enough, and you have to "make up for it, here and now."? What is this "making up" that you're being asked to do, exactly?

 

[Mannahnin]

No - that one was immediately obvious in the 1970s. Note that Warhammer's Dark Elves have always had exactly the same skin colour as High Elves. Drow were weird and uncomfortable the day they were published.

Eh. I think it's pretty clear that Gary was aiming for metaphoric blackness made literal like a fairy tale, not trying to make a point about real world people. Whereas the GW guys were always more politically-conscious, even apart from how Moorcock's Melniboneans were one of the major influences on their Elves.

 

[Oofta]

As a white kid in the 70s and 80s, I certainly didn't see the racism in it, or even notice how it was problematic. And I wasn't alone. I was a white kid around a bunch of other white kids with very little exposure to black people, and I had centuries of lore that associated black/dark with evil/bad. I never even thought to question how that could be problematic, or to question why our folklore could have been rooted in problematic tropes. It wasn't until I became an adult and travelled the world and got new experiences before I started to question these things. I think my experience as a white male in the 70s and 80s is not unusual. Goes back to my point that people who didn't see anything potentially wrong with dark skinned races being evil doesn't make them racists. We were just uninformed and didn't know better. It's how we handle things once we become informed that matters.

Like I said, I think there are some problematic things in D&D especially if you go back far enough.

I just disagree with some of the guilt by association and projection of assumptions of racism.

 

[Mannahnin]

Who is telling you that being aware and respectful of injustices on marginalized people is not enough, and you have to "make up for it, here and now."? What is this "making up" that you're being asked to do, exactly?

Well, Defcon seemed to be saying so, right?

Yes, we'd LIKE to think everything would all be fair and equitable across the board and no one would suffer unduly for what they have or haven't done to people... but we know that's not going to happen. In America for example, we've had several centuries to see that no... not everybody has been treated equally. And thus for the various White, or Male, or Cis, or Straight, or Abled individuals that now feel they are being treated unfairly over this last decade...

well... welcome to the club. Now you know how the other side has felt for hundreds of years.

Of course, there's a difference between feeling like you're being treated unfairly and actually being treated unfairly. Some folks remind one of the aphorism that "when you're accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression."

 

[Charlaquin]

I'll simply say what I've said in similar threads before.

I'm curious to see how contemporary views on morality are balanced against placing a tangible point (XP) value on killing other beings.

Well, XP is (unfortunately, in my opinion,) going out of fashion. And even us grognards who insist XP-based advancement is superior To story-based or session-based, have shifted towards giving XP for overcoming challenges and completing quests rather than killing monsters.

 

[Mind of tempest]

I'll simply say what I've said in similar threads before.

I'm curious to see how contemporary views on morality are balanced against placing a tangible point (XP) value on killing other beings.

I am glad to increase diversity in the game. I am glad to hear the community have conversations concerning problematic elements of gaming culture.

At the same time, some of how I see those conversations approached echoes the reasoning behind the Satanic Panic and similar things during my youth.

Having the conversations: good
How they're being had: perhaps not good

where emotions are involved calm well-thought discussions on how to fix a thing is difficult at the best of times and these are not the best of times.