D&D General Old School DND talks if DND is racist.

[Ruin Explorer]

You may think so. Forgive me if I take the opinion of actual scientists, psychologists, and professors as a bit more weighty than your hot take here.

What?

I'm not expressing an opinion on the scientists.

I'm an expressing an opinion on Singal.

You may want to read a little more carefully.

 

[HJFudge]

No, I've just seen Singal have "discussions" on race and completely dance around ideas and completely not engage the arguments of the black authors arguing with him. So it's not really his output, but literally that I don't trust him as an honest actor. I know there are certain things I agree with him on, and others that I disagree with him. But I wouldn't use him as a source for the things I agree with him on because it's not about what he's saying, but how he's trying to go about it.

So this is like a specific thing to Singal himself, not necessarily based in any view he holds but how he carries himself and how he conducts himself in arguments. I find him to be a bad-faith actor, and thus don't trust any of his output. I know there are plenty of people I disagree with who I find actual good-faith arguments (or at least less bad faith) like David French, Noah Rothman, Scott Lincicome, and a bunch of others I follow on Twitter to keep out of a bubble.

Okay. I feel ya. I happened to enjoy the book, personally, and found that it made some very interesting points.

There are others (some of which you listed) that bring up similar issues with such things.

 

[Zardnaar]

But in only one of them was the U.S. directly responsible for those dead children.

Kinda but as I said kids gonna die regardless. What you're arguing is Japanese children's lives are working h more than Chinese and everyone elses children subject to IJA occupation and/or starvation due to prolonging the war.

That's the context of it with the available information at the time. Are you arguing that ethnic groups children are worth more than that group?

That's the decision that ultimately had to be made. Thats the essence of a moral dilemma someone had to make that decision glad it wasn't me.

 

[Oofta]

The "savage horde" becomes racist when you start applying liberally to people who aren't the Mongols or the like, but just "people who you don't like". It becomes bonus mode super-racist when you start adding insane nonsense like "and they breed really fast and have a low IQ!!!!".

What we think of as sociopaths are people who don't have the inborn instincts of empathy, cooperation and community. They're hard-wired in the the vast majority of people, so that's why we (for the most part) share concepts of good and evil.

I see no issue with a different species not having those instincts. Saying that an orc is as dangerous as a sociopath with anger issues is not racism, it's accepting that orcs are not human.

 

[HJFudge]

Did you read what @Ruin Explorer said? He's saying that Singal distorted what they were saying to support his view, rather than using their work as intended. So you're not actually taking the opinions of the scientists, psychologists, and professors, but rather what Singal manipulated them into saying.

Yes but they are not giving any actual evidence of distortions, merely expressing a hot take, whereas actual psychologists have had more favorable impressions of Singals work. Which is why I would trust their opinion (of his work) more than someone who has demonstrated they are willing to lie when it suits their argument (not you, Ruin).

Also, having actual read it, I find my opinion on the book a bit more weighty than someone who has not and refuses to because they dislike the author. Thats fair, dislike and refuse to read, but I mean...

 

[Ruin Explorer]

What we think of as sociopaths are people who don't have the inborn instincts of empathy, cooperation and community. They're hard-wired in the the vast majority of people, so that's why we (for the most part) share concepts of good and evil.

That's not a scientific fact dude, that's a political opinion that science has failed to validate. Sociopath isn't even a scientific term. Look it up if you don't believe me. I'd link wikipedia but it's not a real term so it's not there.

What it's usually used about is this: Antisocial personality disorder - Wikipedia

But those people do NOT match up with your description and some of them are pretty decent.

 

[Jfdlsjfd]

What we think of as sociopaths are people who don't have the inborn instincts of empathy, cooperation and community. They're hard-wired in the the vast majority of people, so that's why we (for the most part) share concepts of good and evil.

I see no issue with a different species not having those instincts. Saying that an orc is as dangerous as a sociopath with anger issues is not racism, it's accepting that orcs are not human.

I think the point RE and other are trying to make is that for them it's too late to make orc a distinct species. Whatever is written in the future about them, since they have been depicted using the terms used to depict people in real life, they will be seen as people, not another species and therefore you can't ascribe a common trait, positive or negative, to a group of people based on their culture or "race".

 

[Ruin Explorer]

I think the point RE and other are trying to make is that for them it's too late to make orc a distinct species.

This is exactly correct.

You could create a race that is what some people seem to want Orcs to be. It's too late for that to be Orcs, because since 1E or earlier, they've been established to be "just people" in most major settings, and maybe "usually bad people" but that still makes them people.

 

[Justice and Rule]

Yes but they are not giving any actual evidence of distortions, merely expressing a hot take, whereas actual psychologists have had more favorable impressions of Singals work. Which is why I would trust their opinion (of his work) more than someone who has demonstrated they are willing to lie when it suits their argument (not you, Ruin).

Also, having actual read it, I find my opinion on the book a bit more weighty than someone who has not and refuses to because they dislike the author. Thats fair, dislike and refuse to read, but I mean...

That's not really addressing what I said or what @Ruin Explorer said, but I'm not interested in discussing Jesse Singal on this board or in this topic.

 

[Maxperson]

Kinda but as I said kids gonna die regardless. What you're arguing is Japanese children's lives are working h more than Chinese and everyone elses children subject to IJA occupation and/or starvation due to prolonging the war.

No I'm not. I'm not making any value judgment on kids. What I'm arguing is that if your choices are murder lots of kids, or don't murder lots of kids, you don't murder lots of kids. The U.S. would not have been responsible for what would have happened in the other two scenarios.