D&D 5E Greyhawk: Pitching the Reboot

[Snarf Zagyg]

It's been a while since I've posted about Greyhawk ... AND I HAVE COME BACK FOR MORE!

I was inspired by this recent post by @The Glen:

Marketing is the biggest issue. How do you make a setting sound fun? Greyhawk is a complete mess politically. The entire region is a powder keg waiting to blow. You've got expansionist Nations looking to increase their borders, secret societies trying to purge the impure, and the supposed good guys can't put aside their differences to present a united front.

That's what the players are facing. There isn't an elminster in Greyhawk. There isn't going to be high-level saviors that are going to keep the status quo. The high-level Wizards here really don't care about anyone but themselves. And that's a reoccurring theme because a lot of the Nations don't care about what's outside their borders. The elves would watch the Flaeness burn rather than risk their own people.

It's grim. It's bleak. At any given moment you're looking at Fantasy World War 1 as all the old grudges get settled in a geyser of blood. There aren't many happy endings in Greyhawk. But unlike ravenloft or dark Sun they are still possible. You will earn your happy ending.


This is in accord with my general ideas for how to "reboot" or "reintroduce" Greyhawk. In order to bring a viable Greyhawk to 5e, I would observe the following rules:

A. Do not slavishly recreate the past.
This Is A Dude Who, 700 Years Ago, Totally Ravaged China, And Who, We Were Told, 2 Hours Ago, Totally Ravaged Oshman’s Sporting Goods. -Bill .... or Ted... mmm, Esquire?

Greyhawk has a lot of fans, even still. Some love the 1983 set. Others are more about the 3e timeline. Thing is, people like what they like. But you can't go back to the past. If someone loves the old stuff ... they can always play it! There are so many resources for it- from print on demand, to Canonfire, to innumerable Grognards who will be happy to tell you what "real Greyhawk" is like. Point being- if you want the "real" thing, play the real thing. Heck- most of it is doesn't even require much "updating" to 5e, since it was mostly sketches that didn't really rely on rules.

The worst approach would be, IMO, to simply cater to the prior fans. For three simple reasons- (1) a slavish re-creation can never live up to what they have in their minds, because they are no longer living in the 80s or 90s or whenever they were playing it, and are not nearly as awesome and young; (2) prior fans would not agree on what makes a good recreation, anyway, and what needed to be incorporated to modernize it while staying true to Greyhawk (just toss out the term "Dragonborn" and see what happens); and (3) new fans DON'T CARE about your past, gramps. And we want new fans.


B. Quality is what matters.
Quality writing will always attract the high-brow audience. -Chuck Tingle, perhaps.

When you think back about any successful installment in a movie franchise, or any successful "reboot" of a media property, one thing immediately comes to mind- what matters is the quality. It's such a banal point it should be obvious, and yet ... what matters, what always matters, and what only matters, is the quality of the product. People can (and do) discuss things like "fidelity to canon" or "fan service," and these are all good things; but whether a particular media property is reifying expectations, or subverting them, what matters is that it is ... good. People, even the hardcore-iest of the hardcore fans, forgive a multitude of sins when something is good, whereas it's a lot harder to enjoy if it's bad.

More simply- making something high quality is the top priority; fan service should always be the secondary consideration.


C. Make it relevant and make it different.
See, you can't rewrite, 'cause to rewrite is to deceive and lie, and you betray your own thoughts. -Britney Spears, possibly.

The most important thing about any new version of Greyhawk would be that it has some type of relevance to people today. To use a (perhaps trite) example, elements of the reboot of BSG incorporated concepts from the then-current war on terror to give it some added pathos for current viewers. From that perspective, any person looking to re-do or re-launch Greyhawk would be best served looking at those elements from the past that would differentiate Greyhawk from other settings and make it a distinctive and appealing setting for some gamers.

With this is mind, I would argue for the following aspects of Greyhawk that should be brought forward and accentuated, and very much believe that a Greyhawk that more closely resembles a "Game of Thrones" type setting, with darkness, war, and a political backdrop would be very successful!

1. The Dying of the Light.
The Flanaess was once a place of great civilizations. Empires of unimaginable power and magic ruled the land, until they crumbled into dust, victims of their own hubris. Today, the great powers are corrupted from within (the Great Kingdom) or teetering on the edge; a few proud city-states, such as Onnwal, Greyhawk, and Dyvers welcoming traders from far and wide, but much of the land is empty and desolate, with villages and hommlets scraping by meager existences, and the presence of raiding parties a constant threat.

The greatest powers lie within tombs, hidden away in forgotten ruins and wrecked cities covered by jungle, long forgotten.


2. Politics is a zero-sum game.
The nations of the Flanaess are in constant competition with each other. There are theocracies and bandit kingdoms, free cities and associations of free yeoman; but while alliances are easily made, they are more easily broken. Most nations, even the "good" ones, are looking to expand, and all of them are terrified of any new rising power.


3. There is real evil, and it's winning.
While the good and neutral nations mostly squabble amongst themselves, real evil walk the world and cooperates in their plans. At least ... for now. Iuz. The Great Kingdom. And the Scarlet Brotherhood.


That's just an opening. But, in the end, pushing Greyhawk as a setting that really accentuates these differences would make it more interesting for a new set of gamers to play.

So - what's your pitch? How would you reboot Greyhawk?

 

[hopeless]

Pick an area and work from there.
I suspect many might use the Village of Hommlet and work up to the Temple of Elemental Evil.
Are there any other games that stick out as far as Greyhawk are concerned?
Except for Blackmoor perhaps?

 

[The Glen]

Focus on the isolation and the racial and cultural disparity. This is not a land where you walk into a Tavern and find one of every race singing at the bar like in the Forgotten Realms art. And else walking into a human village is probably the first elf they have ever seen period and they will have all sorts of incorrect knowledge about them.

Set the theme as Man versus government. There are knights galore in Greyhawk and they will more than likely be used against Rival Knights of other nations instead of Orcs or Giants. There will be tremendous amount of distrust from Nation to Nation.

Keep the magic broad but low. There's a lot of it, but there are very few high-level practitioners of it. Some styles of magic will not be present. Likewise keep the party poor. Even if they find large amounts of gold know Noble is going to let them keep it. Because they need it more to pay off their Lord, the entire setting is heavily feudal.

Exotic races need to be rare or nonexistent. In Greyhawk the drow are Boogeyman and not a playable race. Most people don't even know they exist. I think the only one that even lives on the surface is at the Valley of the mage and that's off-limits to everyone anyways.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

Keep the magic broad but low. There's a lot of it, but there are very few high-level practitioners of it. Some styles of magic will not be present.

One idea is to have Greyhawk with optional rules to make it specifically a low-magic setting.

In other words, a section for "de-magicking" the various classes.

That might be an interesting twist, and provide more GOT vibes.

 

[Quartz]

So - what's your pitch? How would you reboot Greyhawk?

I think we've done this before. Anyway, I would take the conceit of Pluffet Smedger and make it real. The year is now 800-odd CY. Lands have consolidated and changed. Iuz has become a full god and left Oerth but his legacy remains. Perhaps his lands are ruled by the lich-queen High Priestess Halga. This would allow for a significant reworking of the setting while retaining everything that was.

 

[TwoSix]

That might be an interesting twist, and provide more GOT vibes.

I think beyond GoT vibes, it needs a lot of Witcher vibes and First Law vibes. People aren't fearful of other races out of ignorance, they're fearful of them because they've had enough dealings to know that the other races are different from themselves and have their own priorities. Magic isn't unknown, people know what it's about, but they know that magicians are powerful people who are doing stuff that they can't comprehend, which is plenty of reason to give them a wide berth.

Mordenkainen and the Circle of Eight are more like Bayaz and the Twelve Magi, they're doing their own thing and the balance of power of nations is simply a tool to use for their own ends. Witchers are alchemical mutant super-soldiers, but people still hire them; that's the sort of concept that D&D groups are built on.

 

[Mind of tempest]

One idea is to have Greyhawk with optional rules to make it specifically a low-magic setting.

In other words, a section for "de-magicking" the various classes.

That might be an interesting twist, and provide more GOT vibes.

they could certainly work as sub class ideas. the martial could use some none magic bulking up.

 

[Urriak Uruk]

I think beyond GoT vibes, it needs a lot of Witcher vibes and First Law vibes. People aren't fearful of other races out of ignorance, they're fearful of them because they've had enough dealings to know that the other races are different from themselves and have their own priorities. Magic isn't unknown, people know what it's about, but they know that magicians are powerful people who are doing stuff that they can't comprehend, which is plenty of reason to give them a wide berth.

Mordenkainen and the Circle of Eight are more like Bayaz and the Twelve Magi, they're doing their own thing and the balance of power of nations is simply a tool to use for their own ends. Witchers are alchemical mutant super-soldiers, but people still hire them; that's the sort of concept that D&D groups are built on.

1. The Dying of the Light.
The Flanaess was once a place of great civilizations. Empires of unimaginable power and magic ruled the land, until they crumbled into dust, victims of their own hubris. Today, the great powers are corrupted from within (the Great Kingdom) or teetering on the edge; a few proud city-states, such as Onnwal, Greyhawk, and Dyvers welcoming traders from far and wide, but much of the land is empty and desolate, with villages and hommlets scraping by meager existences, and the presence of raiding parties a constant threat.

The greatest powers lie within tombs, hidden away in forgotten ruins and wrecked cities covered by jungle, long forgotten.

I very much agree with the GoT/Witcher comparisons here. And I think one of the most important aspects of Greyhawk is that it is a world in decline.

Much like how in GoT, most folk don't believe dragons really existed, and how in the Witcher that order of monster-slayers is dying off (and the elves massacred), Greyhawk is a world defined by its decline. Humanity has ascended as the preeminent force on the continent, but they are petty and vindictive, untalented at magic. Ripe for the forces of evil to abuse and manipulate.

It's not really a concept that has been explored much by the D&D settings so far (the closest is Ghosts of Saltmarsh, which is literally in Greyhawk). But I think if you look at GoT and Witcher (two of the most popular fantasy shows of the last 5 years), there is clearly some appeal for more grounded low-magic fantasy.

 

[TwoSix]

It's not really a concept that has been explored much by the D&D settings so far (the closest is Ghosts of Saltmarsh, which is literally in Greyhawk). But I think if you look at GoT and Witcher (two of the most popular fantasy shows of the last 5 years), there is clearly some appeal for more grounded low-magic fantasy.

It would also be a good thing to have developed for the upcoming movie and (especially) TV show; one of the reasons you don't have live-action high fantasy is because the budget would be too high. Low-magic fantasy cuts down on the cost a lot. (Unless you do battles with 1000s of extras on location and have CGI dragons, of course.)

 

[Ruin Explorer]

It's grim. It's bleak. At any given moment you're looking at Fantasy World War 1 as all the old grudges get settled in a geyser of blood.

I gotta say man, I think approximately 0-10 D&D players are interested in a setting like this. Grimdark pre-war? For D&D? Are you even slightly serious?

Grimdark is already like, targeting an old people audience, frankly, grogs and aging edgelords. D&D is absolutely terrible at grimdark. There's no reason to engage with the politics of any of the Greyhawk nations as they're all pretty lame. This is a recipe for selling like hundreds of copies instead of thousands, let alone tens of thousands or millions. It would probably sell worse like this than catering to the ancient fans, even, though I admit not a huge amount worse.

I strongly agree with your general suggestions, but the world you outline doesn't seem one likely to attract players now, in 2021. In 2003 or something? Sure.

But I think if you look at GoT and Witcher (two of the most popular fantasy shows of the last 5 years), there is clearly some appeal for more grounded low-magic fantasy.

In D&D? I don't buy it. I don't buy that that audience really plays TT RPGs, or if they do, wants D&D to be like that. And D&D is extremely bad at that because of the Vancian magic system. The idea that you can have "grounded low-magic" when people are daily summoning magic animals and shooting fireballs and so on at level 5 is pretty silly imho.

It would also be a good thing to have developed for the upcoming movie and (especially) TV show; one of the reasons you don't have live-action high fantasy is because the budget would be too high. Low-magic fantasy cuts down on the cost a lot.

But that's not what D&D is about or like, even slightly. D&D is inherently high-magic, and the only way around it would be to literally cut every single full-caster class from a setting, at which point, it's not really D&D.

As for Greyhawk, I think the only way it comes back and actually sells any copies if it's a modernized gonzo dungeon-crawl fantasy setting leading with strong visual design, an appealing suggestion for how campaigns there should basically work, and one that differentiates it from other "generic fantasy" games, and where the strong villains are used to provide adversaries for adventuring, not fodder for politics.