D&D 5E D&D compared to Bespoke Genre TTRPGs

[prabe]

I am inclined to agree with the OP, mostly. I believe more-varied kinds of stories have emerged in my 5E campaigns than would in any single PbtA or FitD game. The familiarity and penetration aspects @TwoSix mentioned are real, of course, but those seem more applicable to finding tables or players. The fact I'm extremely comfortable running 5E and don't think I'd be at all comfortable running anything FitD or PbtA seems relevant here, too.

 

[MGibster]

So, for me, "you'd be better off playing a game that is made for that" usually rings hollow. What about you?

For me, "you'd be better off playing a game that is made for that" rings like the happy clattering of coins dropping into the payout tray of a slot machine after I hit the jackpot!

What I mean by that is, if I want to have mechanics relating to morale and the bonds formed between PCs and their closest NPCs, or with a community, etc, I can just add rules for that to D&D 5e, and D&D 5e absolutely can handle them without any problems. I have used "act now, plan later" mechanics in 5e. Nothing about 5e prevents or even mildly works against doing so.

To be quite honest, I have neither the desire nor the inclination to heavily modify any game I'm going to run. Though I might make a few minor modifications, I pretty much play rules as written. If I have to make any significant modifications then I should be playing a different game that does what I want it to do right out of the box. I happen to be one of those system matters people as I believe the rules influence how the game is played.

What's more, I generally don't want to play a campaign of heists, or a campaign of city building, or a campaign of building a revolution. I want to use those elements within a larger campaign that features those things and more.

When I want to play a game like D&D nothing really scratches that itch better than D&D. But sometimes I want to play games in other genres including horror, science fiction, super heroes, or even different types of fantasy and D&D just isn't going to scratch that itch. I found out a long, long time ago that the rules for D&D don't work for every type of game I want to play.

 

[Ace]

D&D is for playing D&D which is what most people want most of the time and often enough, its fine as a compromise. Its also played so much that people use it for all kinds of things. In my experience very lightly modified Epic 6 Pathfinder made for really good gritty heist style play.

Now when people want something that isn't D&D like say World of Darkness or back in the day Star Wars D6 they play that game instead. Niche games even get a little play and some groups have favorites they play all the time but on the whole the demand for "other genres" even SF isn't that big and I'd guess many games are bought, read and played maybe once or twice.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I agree that, system-wise, D&D isn’t really all that flexible. But it does have the unique advantage of being most RPG players’ comfort zone. People are often more willing to experiment from a familiar basis than an unfamiliar one, so they’re often more ok with house ruling D&D to make it do something it may not be particularly well-suited for than they are with a system they’re not as familiar with.

I think it is really flexible, though, on top of the familiarity.

But to the point you made up thread, the familiarity might as well be flexibility on a practical level.

Not only is the game built on a really solid foundation with very broadly applicable action resolution, and plenty of room to add or remove mechanics in order to modify the play experience, it is also vastly easier to do things like that with a system where everyone at the table is familiar with the system.

Tangentially, I find that most bespoke games try too hard to gamify/make mechanical the conventions of the genre, which leads to a play experience, for me, where I have to be thinking about game mechanics when I should be thinking about the narrative, my character’s internal state, etc.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

For me, "you'd be better off playing a game that is made for that" rings like the happy clattering of coins dropping into the payout tray of a slot machine after I hit the jackpot!

To be quite honest, I have neither the desire nor the inclination to heavily modify any game I'm going to run. Though I might make a few minor modifications, I pretty much play rules as written.

I can respect that, and I think this is a branch point where we just won’t have much in common afterward.

If I have to make any significant modifications then I should be playing a different game that does what I want it to do right out of the box.

Okay, so do you just...not run with an idea for an adventure or arc within an ongoing campaign if it pushes the genre assumptions of stock D&D ? Do you switch systems for that arc?

I happen to be one of those system matters people as I believe the rules influence how the game is played.

I agree, which is why I prefer to modify a game that is built to withstand modification.

When I want to play a game like D&D nothing really scratches that itch better than D&D. But sometimes I want to play games in other genres including horror, science fiction, super heroes, or even different types of fantasy and D&D just isn't going to scratch that itch. I found out a long, long time ago that the rules for D&D don't work for every type of game I want to play.

Fair enough. I learned the opposite lesson, which just shows that D&D can be rather a lot of things to rather a lot of people.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I'll concede some of your points, but I would point out that the "learning curve" aspect of your post (I already know 5e, so why would I take time to learn another system) is only true IF you know 5e and not another system. Now, that's probably a pretty common state of affairs, but that's an argument about the high penetration of the 5e ruleset, not an argument for the flexibility of the 5e ruleset.

I’ll agree that familiarity is part of the game’s flexibility, but I won’t pretend it’s the whole story, or even most of the story. D&D 5e is broad, and only really detailed in combat, and leaves a lot of room to

Most other games are similarly flexible if mostly freeform "rules systems" are used to adjudicate one-off situations.

I disagree. Most other games are so purpose built that you have to essentially build a new game to get them to do other things. D&D is built to be modified without breaking.

5e D&D is built in a way that I can add “act now plan later” mechanics to a heist story arc with about an hour of prep for the first session. I wasn’t able to do that kind of thing nearly as easily with 3.5 or 4e, much less, say, Monster of The Week.

 

[zarionofarabel]

I'm lazy, so modifying a game system is not something I want to do. Using D&D for anything other than D&D is a no go for me. I'm also smart, so learning a new system is relatively simple. Learning a new system that actually does what I want is way easier than wasting a bunch of my time modifying D&D to do something else it won't really do all that well. I'm also good at teaching people new systems and avoiding systems that take a lot of system mastery to utilize properly. Plus, very few systems I use come close to needing the amount of mechanical knowledge to utilize successfully as D&D does. D&D is a clunky beast that I avoid at all costs, so many other systems do so many things so much better. Lucky for me I have a very easy time convincing players to get off the D&D band wagon. I've been so successful at it that I haven't run a D&D game since the early 3rd edition days. Yay!!!

 

[prabe]

I'm lazy, so modifying a game system is not something I want to do. Using D&D for anything other than D&D is a no go for me. I'm also smart, so learning a new system is relatively simple. Learning a new system that actually does what I want is way easier than wasting a bunch of my time modifying D&D to do something else it won't really do all that well. I'm also good at teaching people new systems and avoiding systems that take a lot of system mastery to utilize properly. Plus, very few systems I use come close to needing the amount of mechanical knowledge to utilize successfully as D&D does. D&D is a clunky beast that I avoid at all costs, so many other systems do so many things so much better. Lucky for me I have a very easy time convincing players to get off the D&D band wagon. I've been so successful at it that I haven't run a D&D game since the early 3rd edition days. Yay!!!

Good for you.

 

[Charlaquin]

Tangentially, I find that most bespoke games try too hard to gamify/make mechanical the conventions of the genre, which leads to a play experience, for me, where I have to be thinking about game mechanics when I should be thinking about the narrative, my character’s internal state, etc.

Eh, this reads like the worst critiques of 4e to me. Game mechanics and immersion are not necessarily in conflict with one another. Are there some over-designed indie games where the mechanics end up getting in the way of what they’re trying to do? Sure. But I don’t think it’s fair to apply that critique to indie games this broadly.

 

[Hussar]

I do have to disagree with your basic premise. The amount of work it becomes to change D&D to allow for certain things means that, by and large, it's extremely kludgey to try it in D&D.

D&D does D&D fantasy extremely well and I think a lot of people have incorporated the tropes of D&D so deeply that they don't really see other ideas. For example, trying to do a really skill heavy session with D&D doesn't work worth a damn because D&D skills are binary - pass/fail - with no gradiation. And no support for gradiation either. You are basically entirely on your own if you want a skill system where you can pass, squeak by, just fail, fail badly. There's nothing in the game that actually supports this.

Can you add it on? Sure. But, then you start getting real weirdness where you have a combat system of pass/fail skill checks but a skill system that is based on gradiations. And, how granular do you want that skill system? So on and so forth.

Look, we've all made our frankengames where we bolt on mechanics from a dozen different systems and just sort of close one eye to all the inconsistencies. But, at no point is any one game going to be better at all things than a game that is purpose built for a specific task. It's just not. We can "make it work". Sure. Hell, the "Roll High" system works a lot of the time. But, it doesn't mean that D&D is a general purpose game. Just that most people don't mind frankengames.