D&D 5E D&D compared to Bespoke Genre TTRPGs

[Aldarc]

I think if you treat D&D as a norm or baseline, then it's going to follow pretty straightforwardly that it's hard to justify a serious departure from it.

But exactly the same would be true if Burning Wheel was my baseline game. Or Prince Valiant.

It certainly seems though that a more generic, flexible, and open-ended baseline (e.g., GURPS, Cypher System, Cortex Prime, Savage Worlds, Hero System, Fate, etc.) would demand less need for system departure than D&D, which has a LOT of particularized genre elements baked into it. I'm honestly surprised that I have not seen someone (that I can at least recall) take the 5e Engine and turn it into a more generic system much like what True20 did for the D&D 3e d20 system or Monte Cook Games did in-house as they went from Numenera to the generalized Cypher System.

 

[dave2008]

Oh, yeah, that is a very stupid idea.

What I suggest is to run a couple of different campaigns with a different cast of characters, that reference and influence the events of other campaigns.

Say, in campaign 1, where the party found some ancient golden chalice in the dungeon and sold it, people in the city started to disappear! And now in campaign 2 we get to play as detectives investigating these mysterious disappearances, question our old PCs, maybe spy on some cultists, uncover the relationships between the unassuming golden chalice and the Drowning God...

Then, why not continue campaign 1, where the brave adventures now have to deal with the mess they've created before with some new context?

OK, I get what your suggesting, but it still doesn't fit my personal taste. It may work for someone else though. I apologize, but to explain further would take more time and effort than I am will to put in at this point and in the end we would still just need to agree to disagree.

Blades offer a unique kind of heists, where the characters are competent and their plans are brilliant. Something like:

The GM: You hear heavy footsteps, at least a dozen pairs of boots. You hear a telltale whistle, the camera shows us the outside of the building... Bluecoats are swarming the place!
The Spider: Wait. Flashback. INT. CAPTAIN GILES'S OFFICE - TIME UNKNOWN. Captain Giles is sitting at his table, a briefcase full of silver in front of him -- there's an equivalent of 4 coins. A moment later, the door opens and Sagida enters. "I hope you like my gift, captain", -- she says. Is 4 coins enough of leverage to SWAY him?
The GM: Sure. What do you want from him?
The Spider: Oh, that's simple. I want his boys to raid the lampblacks HQ, while, uhm, "fail to notice" my boys.
The GM: Sounds reasonable. Sounds Risky/Standard. We already know that Giles is one corrupt and greedy piece of naughty word, so he'll agree anyway -- but maybe he'll ask for more?

In pretty much any other system, police showing up would be something bad that the players would need to somehow deal with. In Blades it can easily be turned into "just another part of the plan", to highlight how damn heisenbergian smart and calculating the PCs are.

OK, I think I remember reading a description about BinD before now. I will reserve judgement until I read the rules in more depth, but that type of game definitely doesn't seem to fit my taste. I will still check it out, but I suspect I will not be able to use much from that game. Thank you for the clarification!

 

[dave2008]

The game calls them Scores. A Score is a job. It can be a heist, certainly....especially for a crew of Shadows, who are thieves....but the game’s not limited to heists. There can be assaults or assassinations or cons or smuggling or any kind of job, really.

I think there’s a lot of overlap with a heist and other types of Scores....deception, stealth, skullduggery and the like.

I still need to dig into it more, but I am getting broad idea of what BinD is from you and other respondents now. Unfortunately I am not liking what I am hearing. I need to verify, but they type of gameplay fostered by BinD doesn't appear to be what I want at all. So not likely something I am going to play of borrow from, at least I don't think so at this time.

So I think the comparison still kind of stands to D&D and combat. I touched on this myself.

I think video games may be a good example. Take your average first person shooter....Borderlands, Call of Duty, Overwatch.....it’s mostly combat. Then take a game like Ghost Recon, Sniper, or Dishonored....it’s about infiltration and stealth.

Sorry, the nuance in your analogy is lost on me as I don't play video games. I get the concept your describing, but with not understanding of the games I don't "feel" the difference your talking about.

Tabletop RPGs have more flexibility, so it’s not like playing Overwatch and trying to sneak past the other team (which doesn’t make any sense)...so you can have stealth based scenarios in D&D here and there. Or other genres like horror or what have you.

But the more persistently you want those other elements to be a part, the more you start to move away from D&D and what it’s good at.

I think this is very true and probably why I will likely stick with D&D. I don't want to run a BinD style heist, I want to run a D&D style heist. Who knew!

 

[Ovinomancer]

OK, I get what your suggesting, but it still doesn't fit my personal taste. It may work for someone else though. I apologize, but to explain further would take more time and effort than I am will to put in at this point and in the end we would still just need to agree to disagree.

OK, I think I remember reading a description about BinD before now. I will reserve judgement until I read the rules in more depth, but that type of game definitely doesn't seem to fit my taste. I will still check it out, but I suspect I will not be able to use much from that game. Thank you for the clarification!

If your intent is to port into 5e, then no, it's pretty hard to effectively rip parts of Blades into 5e. At the core, Blades uses a completely different resolution system, not just dice/stat but also in conception. The basic action resolution system puts strong constraints on the GM compared to 5e, and unfetters the player to a similar degree. This really means the GM cannot, as is actually can't, prep things in the same way as 5e. The GM is not in the driver's seat. So, ripping subsystems from Blades first has the challenge of just how tightly integrated they are, meaning you always lose a good bit of the pressure they have without the support, but also that the way it works shifts strongly moving between systems due to the change in fundamental play structures.

This is another broad issue in this topic: the authority structure of D&D is not universal and games that alter it can acheive some kinds of play that D&D struggles with due to it's authority structure. Simply put, the authority structure of 5e, and it's unstated core mechanic, is "the GM decides."

 

[dave2008]

If your intent is to port into 5e, then no, it's pretty hard to effectively rip parts of Blades into 5e.

That is usually my first option, but I am not opposed to trying new systems for short game or two. However,...

At the core, Blades uses a completely different resolution system, not just dice/stat but also in conception. The basic action resolution system puts strong constraints on the GM compared to 5e, and unfetters the player to a similar degree. This really means the GM cannot, as is actually can't, prep things in the same way as 5e. The GM is not in the driver's seat. So, ripping subsystems from Blades first has the challenge of just how tightly integrated they are, meaning you always lose a good bit of the pressure they have without the support, but also that the way it works shifts strongly moving between systems due to the change in fundamental play structures.

This type of story telling is not what I desire, so I don't think I will be playing BinD (or trying to steal from it).

This is another broad issue in this topic: the authority structure of D&D is not universal and games that alter it can acheive some kinds of play that D&D struggles with due to it's authority structure. Simply put, the authority structure of 5e, and it's unstated core mechanic, is "the GM decides."

I'm well aware, I just shy away from games that deviate to much from the GM authority style. They are just not my thing.

 

[Laurefindel]

If your intent is to port into 5e, then no, it's pretty hard to effectively rip parts of Blades into 5e.

I found it wasn't that hard when I did my Blades in Waterdeep.

Time clocks and flashbacks are easy to port, and stress has its analogue in D&D with hit points and hit dice. (Although i ended-up with planning points as an alternative to inspiration to fuel flashback, rerolls, clues, etc).

The episodic nature of BitD is also not very difficult to recreate, and downtime actions are already a thing in D&D. (We used gritty realism for this game and made "taking a long rest" a downtime action). Go through the usual planning steps to gather planning points. Disposition and complications were also not hard to port.

Weapons and armour in D&D are already separated in light/medium/heavy, so a BitD style equipment list (i.e. you equipment is not written down until you need it) was also easy to port. Lightly equipped? You can wear light armour only and can produce up to 3 items at any point during the game, (weapons must be light, no shields). Medium with medium armour, 5 items, no heavy weapons. Heavy, all armours, 7 items, and all types of weapons.

However, I found it works best at low(ish) levels. Our game was planned for character level 1-5, and I made "lair" classes for the players' crew (also 1-5 levels), whereas lair levels were gained similar to turf in BitD. The crew actions and special actions are not that hard to convert into D&D. Shadow crew could carry thieves' tools and a 50 foot rope without counting against carried items for example.

Does this make it identical to playing BitD? Of course not. It still played like D&D, but with a BitD coat of paint.. Which was the point, obviously.

 

[Uni-the-Unicorn!]

So, for me, "you'd be better off playing a game that is made for that" usually rings hollow. What about you?

Gawd! I hate when people do that. I'm playing D&D, I don't want advice to play a different game - jeesh. You might as well tell me to divorce my husband and find a new partner because he doesn't cook!*

*I just wanted to clarify my husband can cook, he just isn't very knowledgeable and prefers not to.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Gawd! I hate when people do that. I'm playing D&D, I don't want advice to play a different game - jeesh. You might as well tell me to divorce my husband and find a new partner because he doesn't cook!

Wow.

I mean wooooooow. So you're metaphorically "married to D&D"? I mean, that's wild. It's like a sea-captain being "married to the sea" or "married to their ship" or something I guess. That is probably the most extreme "I'm into D&D" claim I've ever read in 30+ years so er... respect for that I guess.

Obviously if you're so utterly, deeply, completely committed to a game that you would directly equate it to an inviolable holy union, that you're literally sworn oaths to uphold, then you're not really likely to be interested in any other games, under any circumstances. But that doesn't seem like it's a common or really reasonable position.

Maybe you would have been better off with like a car analogy or something? Just suggesting.

I found it wasn't that hard when I did my Blades in Waterdeep.

Time clocks and flashbacks are easy to port, and stress has its analogue in D&D with hit points and hit dice. (Although i ended-up with planning points as an alternative to inspiration to fuel flashback, rerolls, clues, etc).

The episodic nature of BitD is also not very difficult to recreate, and downtime actions are already a thing in D&D. (We used gritty realism for this game and made "taking a long rest" a downtime action). Go through the usual planning steps to gather planning points. Disposition and complications were also not hard to port.

I'd agree.

I'm not sure why people think D&D isn't relatively compatible with heists etc. - as I've pointed out a few times, the BitD flashback/planning stuff was actually in D&D adventure in Dungeon in 2010, loooooooong before BitD existed.

But some other mechanics don't port as well, and what particularly tends to be an issue is if you start trying to port mechanics from multiple different systems. Like with your example, I'd actually say you'd gone too far, like you're taking bits of BitD which aren't really necessary and aren't going to help the vibe, just for the sake of mirroring BitD, which is going to make it harder if you also want to use that D&D campaign to do non-BitD stuff.

 

[Uni-the-Unicorn!]

Wow.

I mean wooooooow. So you're metaphorically "married to D&D"? I mean, that's wild. It's like a sea-captain being "married to the sea" or "married to their ship" or something I guess. That is probably the most extreme "I'm into D&D" claim I've ever read in 30+ years so er... respect for that I guess.

Obviously if you're so utterly, deeply, completely committed to a game that you would directly equate it to an inviolable holy union, that you're literally sworn oaths to uphold, then you're not really likely to be interested in any other games, under any circumstances. But that doesn't seem like it's a common or really reasonable position.

Maybe you would have been better off with like a car analogy or something? Just suggesting.

Or maybe you shouldn't take it so seriously.

 

[Ovinomancer]

Gawd! I hate when people do that. I'm playing D&D, I don't want advice to play a different game - jeesh. You might as well tell me to divorce my husband and find a new partner because he doesn't cook!

I'm afraid Poe's Law in preventing me from grasping the intent here.