D&D 5E D&D compared to Bespoke Genre TTRPGs

[prabe]

Maybe, but that is specifically what I don't like about BitD. I would be interested in heist/game mechanics that don't involve flashbacks.

I think the way to run a heist without flashbacks would be to run it as linear as possible. You (the DM) would have to prep the place to be heisted, then y'all would have to play out all the info-gathering, planning, and anything else (such as social-engineering) that needed done before the heist, then y'all would have to play out the heist. You (the GM) would have to have the players' trust that you'd run all of that in good faith.

I think 5E could work pretty well mostly as-is for this. I think it's an entirely different playstyle than BitD is aiming for, and I'm not sure how much anything from it (other than maybe clocks) would be applicable. It's plausible, as @tetrasodium seems to imply, that maintaining believability will be difficult if there's asymmetry of real-world security expertise between the players and the DM. You're a far better judge of whether that's likely to be a problem at your table than anyone else in this thread is likely to be. (IMO, if no one is an expert in the field, it probably won't be a problem.)

 

[Uni-the-Unicorn!]

Well I almost got coffee all over my phone, so thanks for that!

Well that is generally what I was going for, except the potential phone damage.

 

[Aldarc]

It's far easier to adapt whatever setting a publisher has to 5e - make $$$ off the D&D locomotive - than design a system from the ground up and risk it not catching on. Probably why no one has done that.

Ultramodern 5 is a weird mix of parts 5e, 4e and 3e d20. I didn't like it.

It would hardly be a system from the ground up though, as I am proposing something more akin to a generic version of the 5e engine/system.

 

[dave2008]

I think the way to run a heist without flashbacks would be to run it as linear as possible. You (the DM) would have to prep the place to be heisted, then y'all would have to play out all the info-gathering, planning, and anything else (such as social-engineering) that needed done before the heist, then y'all would have to play out the heist. You (the GM) would have to have the players' trust that you'd run all of that in good faith.

I think 5E could work pretty well mostly as-is for this. I think it's an entirely different playstyle than BitD is aiming for, and I'm not sure how much anything from it (other than maybe clocks) would be applicable. It's plausible, as @tetrasodium seems to imply, that maintaining believability will be difficult if there's asymmetry of real-world security expertise between the players and the DM. You're a far better judge of whether that's likely to be a problem at your table than anyone else in this thread is likely to be. (IMO, if no one is an expert in the field, it probably won't be a problem.)

That was pretty much my thought until I heard about the great way BitD handles heists! I think I would like incorporate a version of BitD clocks or PF2e VP systems, but not the flashbacks.

Fortunately I've gamed with my group for 30+ years and trust is not an issue we have to worry about. We are all here to have fun.

 

[Marc_C]

It would hardly be a system from the ground up though, as I am proposing something more akin to a generic version of the 5e engine/system.

Is it possible under the 5e licence? It's not an OGL like 3e was.

 

[prabe]

That was pretty much my thought until I heard about the great way BitD handles heists! I think I would like incorporate a version of BitD clocks or PF2e VP systems, but not the flashbacks.

Fortunately I've gamed with my group for 30+ years and trust is not an issue we have to worry about. We are all here to have fun.

Yeah, sorry--that was intended more as a generic you-the-DM. I have gotten the impression other groups have tried it and had it not work because they felt the DM was fiating against them (too much).

 

[Ovinomancer]

Yes! That is the mechanic that made me interested in BitD - thank you for reminding me. I think that ports to D&D just fine (as a replacement / upgrade to skill challenges).

Clocks are easier to port, but these also have a lot of complexity that can be lost in a port. The function of clocks in Blades is as a player-facing tool to foreshadow danger or put a contest tracker up. Players need to be able to imteract with the clocks and take actions against them. It's not just a time marker. You can use it like that, but then you haven't really imported anything but a form.

Maybe, but that is specifically what I don't like about BitD. I would be interested in heist/game mechanics that don't involve flashbacks.

So, the thing here is interesting and it happens to conflict with the GM centered nature of play. Presumably, you'll have largely prepped the heist location, obstacles and threats therein, and the goals. The players then need to find out what these are, make a plan, and execute the plan successfully. This is very dependent on the GM -- how free a given GM is with allowing information gathering, how free a GM is with accomodaying planning steps, and how freely the GM adjudicates the results. These are all going to be highly idiosyncratic, so it's very difficult to provide support under this schema of simulationism and heavy GM authority.

It's telling that both of the most explaned methods for dealing with heists in 5e (@doctorbadwolf, @Laurefindel) both add new player-side plot coupons style mechanics and run very loosely in an ad-lib manner. Not knocking either of these approaches at all, just pointing them out as both stepping away from a hard-coded GM prep schema where the heist is more like a puzzle to solve.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Now I need to go make my man's breakfast, wash his clothes, and clean his house.

Really hoping that bit's a joke! Otherwise that man needs a bit of time alone to up his life-partner game!

So, to me, it reads as another ad hoc collection held together by that particular GM's conception and application and not any kind of general issue patch to 5e to add support for heists.

Oh I agree, but I don't think picking tons of stuff from BitD is the best way to generically support heists in D&D in the first place. As an aside, I think BitD is somewhat overrated as a heist game. It's actually not really much more a "generic fantasy heist game" than D&D is a "generic fantasy RPG", which is to say, not really. BitD supports a particular and specific approach to heists (preferring little planning and a lot of improvising and retcon). Do a lot of people like it? Yes. Do I like it? No. I do not. And I love heists lol.

 

[Uni-the-Unicorn!]

Really hoping that bit's a joke! Otherwise that man needs a bit of time alone to up his life-partner game!

Yes and no. Yes it is a joke in the sense that is not how my husband and I relate to each other. No in the sense is that is how your comment made me feel when you thought it was appropriate to tell me what I was thinking. Sorry, it is a trigger.

 

[Ovinomancer]

Really hoping that bit's a joke! Otherwise that man needs a bit of time alone to up his life-partner game!

Oh I agree, but I don't think picking tons of stuff from BitD is the best way to generically support heists in D&D in the first place. As an aside, I think BitD is somewhat overrated as a heist game. It's actually not really much more a "generic fantasy heist game" than D&D is a "generic fantasy RPG", which is to say, not really. BitD supports a particular and specific approach to heists (preferring little planning and a lot of improvising and retcon). Do a lot of people like it? Yes. Do I like it? No. I do not. And I love heists lol.

There's no retcons in Blades. Flashbacks cannot change any established fiction. This us actually an absolute bedrock core conceit in Blades -- once a thing is established in the fiction, it's in the fiction. At best, you can alter the level of effect with a resist roll, but that's changing, "the thug stabs you in the chest, collapsing your lung, level 3 harm," to, on a Resist, " the thug stabs you through the arm, take level 2 harm, stabbed in the arm." You can (sometimes) change the level, but you can't change you got stabbed.