D&D 5E (2014) D&D compared to Bespoke Genre TTRPGs

[loverdrive]

but in turn doesn't allow for elaborate planning and playing out of prep heists.

Which is a good thing that any system striving for heists should do.

Like, that thing alone makes it better for heists than D&D which encourages wasting time on useless naughty word.

 

[Guest 85555]

Super hyper detailed plans will push against that expectation. But some basic ideas aren't usually an obstacle.

I am still trying to wrap my head around Blades, but I think this does get at some kind of style line for me with the system. Where when I am playing an organized crime or heist campaign most of the fun for us is the planning phase, and we want the details of our plan to matter, and we want our reconnaissance to be important to (and be somewhat 'exploration' based). I am still fuzzy on blades so I am going with what I've read in the book and what I have seen described here. But there is something more amorphous about how it deals with setting details that would make the strategics aspect of the heist seem less interesting to me (I could be wrong). What it seems great for though is nailing the dramatics. Like I could see it playing out kind of like Reservoir Dogs and do a very good job of it. Correct me if I am off on this. But you mentioning hyper detailed planning being potentially a problem brought this to my mind (and I have noticed both me and my players tend to lean on hyper detailed planning).

 

[Imaro]

Which is a good thing that any system striving for heists should do.

Like, that thing alone makes it better for heists than D&D which encourages wasting time on useless naughty word.

Stop... this is your preference... your preference does not equate to better, plain and simple.

 

[Manbearcat]

For my own understanding: what exactly do people mean by "heists"?

The first thing that comes to mind for me is Ocean's 11 (Clooney version), and there's nothing I recall from that film that I can't model in DnD 5e. The hardest part would be the getting-the-crew-together sequence, because it's all showoff scenes which are hard to set up and let run since you kinda need them to be short and to the point. A lot of meta conceits for a DnD game.

Admittedly, this is one of the many places where 5e's lack of a good skill challenge system is a problem, but it's not an actual barrier to doing the thing - it just would be better with such a system. And it's not heist-specific by a long shot.

Now, if I were running that kind of adventure in 5e, I'd probably add in a flashback mechanic (so we don't spend a real-world month planning), and I'd need to add a way for the pc's to scout the location safely (ie they need an invitation to the duchess's birthday party to check out the duke's mansion before the actual raid). But those aren't impossible or even hard to do in 5e.

I don't know what people mean by heists. But here is the reality in Harper's own words and in the language of the game. Blades in the Dark Opening Entry:


Blades in the Dark is a game about a group of daring scoundrels building a criminal enterprise on the haunted streets of an industrial-fantasy city. There are heists, chases, escapes, dangerous bargains, bloody skirmishes, deceptions, betrayals, victories, and deaths.

We play to find out if the fledgling crew can thrive amidst the teeming threats of rival gangs, powerful noble families, vengeful ghosts, the Bluecoats of the City Watch, and the siren song of the scoundrels’ own vices.


The actual Scores include assault, deception, stealth, occult, social, transport. These can be anything from short-cons, card tournaments, smuggling cargo into/out of somewhere, exorcisms, forging and planting documents, assassinations, taking out a gang in a tavern and burning it to the ground (Peaky Blinders style), etc etc etc.

 

[loverdrive]

Stop... this is your preference... your preference does not equate to better, plain and simple.

I mean... Point me at a movie, where planning is shown on-screen, and then the characters also execute it, instead of one of them saying "I have a plan", camera focusing on their devilish grin... And BOOM! We're in the middle of the action!

After all, if we are trying to emulate "real world", then, well, scene 1: 1d4 of you get shot, the rest are going to jail.

If we are doing the sensible thing and emulating movies/comics/literature instead, then what's the point of planning?

 

[Imaro]

1) Propose a broad scenario.

2) Zoom in very tight on a singular moment of action resolution within the conflict and I'll give you a specific example that intersects with your proposal (which should do the most work on illuminating how Blades tech/structure/ethos supports play)

I don't think this is the question I am asking though. I know that BitD has a specific structured process for play but whether that is better or worse for heists is debatable... My question is what specific support for heists (because this has been stated at least a few times by different posters) does the game provide. That is what I am trying to discern... what specifically and in laymen terms does it do to support heists? If you think me answering the two questions above will give me the answer to that question I'll try to provide something but I just want to be clear about what I am asking first.

 

[Manbearcat]

After all, if we are trying to emulate "real world", then, well, scene 1: 1d4 of you get shot, the rest are going to jail.

Lol. You forget about the flash jump to the credits and the cuing of the Benny Hill theme!

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Which is a good thing that any system striving for heists should do.

Like, that thing alone makes it better for heists than D&D which encourages wasting time on useless naughty word.

I mean... Point me at a movie, where planning is shown on-screen, and then the characters also execute it, instead of one of them saying "I have a plan", camera focusing on their devilish grin... And BOOM! We're in the middle of the action!

After all, if we are trying to emulate "real world", then, well, scene 1: 1d4 of you get shot, the rest are going to jail.

If we are doing the sensible thing and emulating movies/comics/literature instead, then what's the point of planning?

Not everyone is trying to faithfully emulate some specific thing. If a group enjoys planning and executing that plan, then it is good that there are games that don’t actively fight them doing so.

 

[Imaro]

I mean... Point me at a movie, where planning is shown on-screen, and then the characters also execute it, instead of one of them saying "I have a plan", camera focusing on their devilish grin... And BOOM! We're in the middle of the action!

After all, if we are trying to emulate "real world", then, well, scene 1: 1d4 of you get shot, the rest are going to jail.

If we are doing the sensible thing and emulating movies/comics/literature instead, then what's the point of planning?

So you assume we are all playing to create or emulate a... movie?? And that this is the only "sensible" thing to want?

 

[Manbearcat]

I don't think this is the question I am asking though. I know that BitD has a specific structured process for play but whether that is better or worse for heists is debatable... My question is what specific support for heists (because this has been stated at least a few times by different posters) does the game provide. That is what I am trying to discern... what specifically and in laymen terms does it do to support heists? If you think me answering the two questions above will give me the answer to that question I'll try to provide something but I just want to be clear about what I am asking first.

No I gotcha.

I know what you're asking.

I'm asking you to give me a quick, made-up excerpt of play (the broad > then the zoom) which you feel would help illuminate how Blades (as a system) "supports" play.

You give me the skin. I'll give you the skeleton.

You give me the paint. I'll give you the chassis/engine.

You give me the potatoes. I'll mash them and put garlic/butter/cream in them.

You give me the...you get the idea.