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D&D 5E D&D compared to Bespoke Genre TTRPGs

Hussar

Legend
Cool...



1.) A wealthy noble and secret cult leader of an elder sea god has acquired a sentient cursed relic which he keeps in the catacomb temple beneath his manor. The PC's are stealing said relic.


2.) The PC's have found their way to the central chamber of the catacomb temple, an enormous cavern that is flooded with murky sea water and guarded by cult members who have all been mutated by the relic so that they are equal part human and squid. The relic itself is on a small artificially made island in the flooded cavern that can be reached by a thin bridge of damp, brittle coral that stretches from the only adjoining tunnel to the small isle. The relic itself rests on an altar, in the middle of the isle, constructed of shells, barnacles and sea urchin spines that havebeen coated with a potent sea urchin venom. Finally the relic itself being sentient has a connection to the noble and will alert him if it senses that anything is amiss.

Not sure if this was what you were looking for or not. Hopefully it is but if not I'd be willing to take another crack at it with more guidance.

Unfortunately, IME, long before #2, the PC's have failed a stealth check to bypass some guard or other, that guard has immediately raised the alarm, and the PC's have now had to slaughter everyone in the manor just to get to #2 which is immediately a combat encounter. IOW, the heist is basically just one running combat encounter with a largely pointless amount of discussion beforehand.
 

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Lanefan

Victoria Rules
Which is a good thing that any system striving for heists should do.
Why?

I mean, there's three basic parts to a heist: the planning, the execution, and the getaway/consequences; and of those three the planning takes the longest both in-fiction and at the table.

Negating the planning phase by jumping straight to the execution phase seems to me to be defeating at least 1/3 of the point of running a heist scenario.
Like, that thing alone makes it better for heists than D&D which encourages wasting time on useless naughty word.
By which, you mean ... ?
 

Unfortunately, IME, long before #2, the PC's have failed a stealth check to bypass some guard or other, that guard has immediately raised the alarm, and the PC's have now had to slaughter everyone in the manor just to get to #2 which is immediately a combat encounter. IOW, the heist is basically just one running combat encounter with a largely pointless amount of discussion beforehand.
This can be helped if you have some kind of system to allow a certain number of auto-successes on necessary rolls. The plan should obviously work to create a situation where a minimal number of things are left to chance and thus rolls.

Also this is absolutely an area D&D falls flat on its face on, because it has skill checks which are both A) binary pass/fail, and B) extremely random with no centering whatsoever, so there's basically like a 30% chance that your skill investment even interacts with your roll at all in any meaningful way (i.e. not so low it doesn't matter, nor so high it doesn't matter). If there was ever any argument against using D&D 5E for heists, it was the basic design of D&D 5E's skill system. Though "min 10" thing Rogues can do can make a huge difference if they're high enough level and have it in the right skill.

The other big reason not to use D&D is that D&D has absolutely no rules for knocking out or killing someone from surprise. I'm going to work on a version of the Execution Attack rules from Worlds Without Number if I run any future D&D heists to deal with that (it's OSR so should work well-ish).

EDIT - Here's the wording on Execution Attacks from WWN (pretty sure no-one will mind given it's in the free version of WWN and possibly also SWN):

"Execution Attacks
A target that is completely unaware of danger is vulnerable to a quick and bloody death, no matter how great their martial prowess or how thick their armor. An Execution Attack gives an assailant an opportunity to slay a foe with a single well-placed arrow or blade.

Setting up such an attack requires a full minute of preparation. Archers, gunmen, and other ranged attackers must spend it judging distance, wind, and details of aim, while melee assassins must use it to drift up to the target and position themselves in the exact right place for the attack. Melee assassins must use a weapon for an Execution Attack, unless they have such special training
as to make their unarmed attacks unusually lethal. If the target is spooked, the opportunity is lost.

Once the preparation is complete, the assailant may use a Main Action to attack. The target’s Armor Class is irrelevant, assuming the attacker is using a weapon that can hurt the target. A melee Execution Attack will always hit. A ranged Execution Attack requires a Dex/Shoot skill check against a difficulty of 6 for a point-blank shot, 8 for one at the weapon’s normal range, and 10 for a shot
at extreme range. A Warrior can use their Veteran’s Luck ability with this skill check, but it only allows a reroll on a failed check rather than forcing an automatic hit.

If the Execution Attack hits, the target must make an immediate Physical saving throw at a penalty equal to the attacker’s combat skill level. If they fail, they are Mortally Wounded on the spot, or knocked unconscious if the attacker was using a plausibly non-lethal weapon. If they succeed, the weapon still does its maximum damage."

So in D&D terms, you'd need 1 minute of setup, regardless of whether you were using melee or ranged, probably limit it to proficient weapons and normal (not long) range, maybe even 30ft because D&D likes limiting things to 30ft, even though I think it's dumb lol. Depending on circumstances you might need Stealth checks and so on.

After one minute, you use an Action to make an attack. If it's melee, it auto-hits, if ranged, roll against AC 10 (w/in 30ft,) AC 14 (w/in normal range), AC 14 with Disadvantage for long range, or something like that. If successful, target needs to make a Fort save vs. the PC's Prof bonus + damage stat + whatever the normal number is or be reduced to 0 HP (dead or unconscious at player discretion as per normal D&D rules). If succeeds at save, target takes maximized damage instead (obviously including SA if it's a Rogue doing this). Rogues should probably get something making the save even harder to make, too, but maybe maximized SA is enough to account for that.
 
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Hussar

Legend
Let me ask those who consider their heist/infiltration scenarios in DND to be successful. What percentage of these scenarios succeed.

I’ll define success as any attempt that does not result in the deaths of 50+% of the inhabitants of the heist location.
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
Just a question to the crowd here. How many times has the planning and prep been successful in your games? In games I've played in, the success rate is 0. As in, it never, ever works in D&D. Any edition. It always ends in getting caught and giant combat. That has always been my experience, every single time. So, how often are your PC heists actually successful? 10% 50% 100%? Because, frankly, anything less than 50% means that we're just wasting our time most of the time.
Successful overall? Some of the time. Successful exactly as planned? Rarely, usually due either to sheer bad luck or - in some cases - a hindsight-obvious oversight in scouting/info gathering. It's quite true that no plan ever survives contact with the enemy, even when the enemy is nothing more than stone walls and locked doors. :)

How often do the failures end in "getting caught and giant combat"? Some of the time. Just as often, a failure means they've for some reason simply aborted before getting in past any points of no return, after which they'll either abandon the idea or reload and try again later.
 

Thomas Shey

Legend
I'm just not sure I entirely buy that the success is actually due to people wanting X and not wanting Y. That's not how things work in the real world. It's never that pure, never that clean, never that neat.

While I agree that's true, any argument to the contrary comes down to people being unable to learn what they want and, essentially, mind reading their actual motives. There are cases where trying to draw too many conclusions is not a good idea (how popular the mechanics of D&D proper are is essentially impossible to determine because of the industry footprint and networking factor its had from day one, and some similar processes may occur with some licensed games; other factors so perturb process its essentially impossible to tease them out), but I think to suggest that the design and choices of a system have no significant impact is a trip I can't follow you on.

I'm sure it's true that Icons isn't what some people want, but based on my experience right here, I'm telling you that marketing and people knowing about things are huge factors here, that you are seemingly almost totally discounting in favour of this idea that people all play what they actually want to.

I'm absolutely not, as you can see above. But I'm also not accepting that its all about marketing, especially in the modern period.

Whoa, so you were around in 1981 when all this was developed? Or when the HERO transition was made in 1990?

Yes. In fact, my name appears in passing in at least two editions of the core book.

(Yes, I'm old).

Really? I'm skeptical there are "a lot" of such people.

Its obviously an assertation that's going to be impossible to prove, but given the number of people I've seen over the years express dissatisfaction with the time and tedium taken by pre-prep on such things, I'm fairly comfortable saying its true. I could, of course, have seen an unrepresentative sample but it would be, shall I say, an amazing coincidence.

I know people who like really detailed heists, sure, who like the procedure and preparation and so on. I also know people who want cinematic heists, without much procedure or precision prep, and BitD exists primarily to support those cinematic heists (and is clearly popular), and who love the drama of them. I think some like both. I've never come people who don't like the procedure, and don't the drama, and just want points to allow them to "cheat" at heists as it were. In my experience people like that aren't interested in heists as a game element at all. They'd rather skip the heist entirely. I mean, sure someone like that technically exists, but what leads you to the conclusion that there are "a lot" of such people playing TT RPGs?

I suspect some of them are in your second category; they like the action and process once the heist/caper is going on, its just that they don't feel a need for the whole "flashback-of-how-you-put-this-tool-there". Its not that they don't like the drama, its that they don't want to take much time out to deal with the retroactive explanation as to where they picked up that particular shaped charge they're using right now; its using the shaped charge and what happens afterwards they're focused on.

Honestly, its much like the issue with games that want "narration" to get a bonus on certain rolls. Even people who aren't opposed to it in principal just sometimes want to roll the damn dice.

I'm unconvinced by this analogy. Certainly people don't necessarily find the procedural approach to dungeoneering interesting today, it's more of a niche thing with Torchbearer etc. But I think extending that to saying people want like "heist magic" without anything at all around it is a bit of an overreach, or if not your intention, I don't think this analogy is clarifying anything. It may even be muddying it.

Possibly so, but if the above and it don't present what I'm talking about, I don't think my trying further is going to do much better.

Completely agree, yeah.

Its one of those things I don't like to do with repeated opponents in a supers game because I have the sense at some point I'll likely have to make a decision regarding someone's capability in some area that I may have wanted to think through more, but when I just need someone they're never going to see again, it just doesn't matter enough to bother with; its like listing full skill lists with opponents in a BRP game, even though the context of when you encounter them almost certainly means most of those will never matter even a bit.

This seems to be based on the frankly erratic notion that "planning isn't inherently fun for anyone". I would argue that for a lot of groups, planning is extremely fun, and that very much includes factoring in that it's all likely to go to hell. Saying it's "wasted time" and "useless naughty word" is exactly the same underlying attitude as people who say RP is "wasted time" and "naughty word".

Its abundantly clear some people get a lot of fun out the planning stage. I'm not sure there's much middle ground though, and its hard for it to be a non-trivial part of time consumption (all the worse if multiple planners tend to second-guess each other in any case where a clear favorite about how to do something doesn't shake out). So it can easily turn into a question of "What matters more, these three people's fun or they's three people's tedium?" and I don't think there's any easy answer to that.
 
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Thomas Shey

Legend
Hard to say, I think people just have very different thresholds for what they need to run different types of experiences. For some people, it doesn't fit DND if it doesn't have frequent combat, whereas other people just want the good combat rules when it does come up, and the skill system/freestyling is actually perfect for them to do all that stuff a bespoke system would mechanize.

The problem is that the skill system isn't even that good for some uses you'd want to make it serve. The skills are too broad or too narrow, too reliable or not reliable enough. This is true of a number of other elements in the game, too (magic being the standout; the historical set up of D&D magic being (usually) fire-and-forget exception based spells can end up serving a number of purposes, shall we say, badly.
 

Imaro

Legend
Unfortunately, IME, long before #2, the PC's have failed a stealth check to bypass some guard or other, that guard has immediately raised the alarm, and the PC's have now had to slaughter everyone in the manor just to get to #2 which is immediately a combat encounter. IOW, the heist is basically just one running combat encounter with a largely pointless amount of discussion beforehand.
Well I would be using group checks along with the rules in the DMG for either Success with a cost or Degrees of failure... so no, I don't see this as the most probable outcome in my game. But thanks for answering the question... I guess??
 

Imaro

Legend
Let me ask those who consider their heist/infiltration scenarios in DND to be successful. What percentage of these scenarios succeed.

I’ll define success as any attempt that does not result in the deaths of 50+% of the inhabitants of the heist location.

Can I ask a question... Is it possible that this result can also be the outcome of a heist in BitD (death of over 50% of the inhabitants of the heist location)?? Or is this just not a possibility at all?
 

Thomas Shey

Legend
A little off current point, but I have seen this 'bespoke rpg' term a few times now. Heard of bespoke for other things but never for RPGs. Are there a specific range of RPGs that fall under this category?

I can point at a number of them in the category, most of (comparatively) recent vintage. They're usually designed to cover a specific genre or subgenre (and note the lifting the word "specific" is doing in that phrase) and often a specific style within it. As compared to a game that may cover a broad genre (or even multiple genres) at least in theory, including a wide variety of game types within it.
 

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