OSR Is there room in modern gaming for the OSR to bring in new gamers?

[Imaro]

Old school (where players try to overcome fictional challenges with their wits, with the GM being an impartial judge) is very different from Mid school (where players are going through an adventure path, with the GM being game designer, narrative designer and level designer), which is very different from New school (where the players actively work together to create a cool and engaging story, exploring a theme and basically having an allegorical debate on real-world subjects, with or without a GM). There are barely any shared best (and words) practices, other than not being a dick and bringing snacks with you.

Yeah...you seem to be setting up some really narrow definitions that I'm not so sure are as all encompassing when it comes to groups and the games they play as you think they are...

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

Well, yeah. It's not like they have shared best practices, or can meaningfully help each other to achieve their goals. And, well, collecting different things are different hobbies in my book. It's not like I, while collecting firearms, can meaningfully talk to a hot wheels collector beyond the way I can talk to someone interested in, idk, tango dancing. Sure, we can talk passionately about our things, and it may be a very fun conversation, but we wouldn't be able to exchange experience in a way where we learn something applicable to our hobbies.

And, to take a step further. TTRPGs are literally table-top (well, sure we have VTTs, but there's a Tabletop Simulator). Can you give a meaningful advice to someone playing Munchkin, or, hell, chess? Can they give you one? Sure, they can give you some cool ideas, but that's not that different from watching a documentary on butterflies and getting cool ideas from there.

It's a fascinating theory that, for example, AD&D and B/X are completely different hobbies than 5e.

I doubt you will find much purchase with any theory that requires such limited definitions. IMO.

 

[Sacrosanct]

Old school (where players try to overcome fictional challenges with their wits, with the GM being an impartial judge) is very different from Mid school (where players are going through an adventure path, with the GM being game designer, narrative designer and level designer), which is very different from New school (where the players actively work together to create a cool and engaging story, exploring a theme and basically having an allegorical debate on real-world subjects, with or without a GM). There are barely any shared best (and words) practices, other than not being a dick and bringing snacks with you.

The huge glaring flaw in your argument is the assumption that these are all mutually exclusive. They aren't. Guess what? Way back in 1981 the "players actively worked together to create a cool and engaging story", and even us grogs now playing 5e play it as the GM being an impartial judge and we use player skill to resolve many challenges.

D&D is D&D. Playing B/X or 5e is all still the same hobby. It's literally the same name of the same type of game. Your flawed analogies of trying to compare collecting firearms with hot wheels is noted.

 

[AmerginLiath]

We always have to keep in mind that terms like Old or Modern are so often based on when we as gamers experience them or when they enter the vocabulary of the games we play. Third Edition was famous in its import of Rolemaster-style and Traveller-style rules, many dating back to same late 1970s that birthed AD&D (those happening to be the other systems that the designers of late 2nd Edition AD&D and those coming into WotC played alongside their fix of Gygax & company. Likewise, many of the elements we see in modern story games grew out of Storyteller Systems like White Wolf in the 1990s — again, the people who grew up playing that refined the elements they liked, some of which have more recently cross-pollinated into 5th Edition D&D (especially as new designers enter). Even consider the way that “video-gamey” 4th Edition was the most wargame-influenced edition in decades (I’ve argued that there’s probably a market for building a modern version of Chainmail off the 4E chassis).

We simply remix elements of storytelling and game mechanics, adding in some new tricks over time but mainly pulling back in old tools that a different game used a decade or two earlier in a different fashion. The question here is how we approach what we consider D&D qua D&D, regardless of edition (it’s why we have our sacred cows). So fitting together puzzle box style or plot driver style or war gamer style with sets of D&D qua D&D mechanics that feel copacetic is both a challenge and an opportunity to both bring in more gamers and to tell more stories. I generally think we should stop seeing different editions (and clones/variations) as warring competitors and begin to view them more as different tools to play within the D&D realm of play in different ways.

 

[AmerginLiath]

The huge glaring flaw in your argument is the assumption that these are all mutually exclusive. They aren't. Guess what? Way back in 1981 the "players actively worked together to create a cool and engaging story", and even us grogs now playing 5e play it as the GM being an impartial judge and we use player skill to resolve many challenges.

D&D is D&D. Playing B/X or 5e is all still the same hobby. It's literally the same name of the same type of game. Your flawed analogies of trying to compare collecting firearms with hot wheels is noted.

For every great dungeon crawl back in the day (I’m thinking of around 1987 rather than 1981 in my case), there was a group using a convention module too straightforwardly, and another group at the mercy of a killer DM working off stress at the players’ expense!

 

[Umbran]

Earlier there was a comment about “Everything grognards hate is good for new gamers.” Impudent comment aside, it got me thinking. Back in the early 80s, the game had a meteoric growth rate, so it seems that the old school style of play (being current at the time) did very well in bringing in new players. Now, 5e seems to also be doing a great job bringing in new players.

Has our community changed that much that not only is there no room in modern gaming for the OSR to bring in new gamers, but it’s actively harmful to bringing them in as that comment implies?

I think it is less about "room" and more about cultural relevance. I think many of the things that made the "old school" games attractive back in the 80s are not particularly attractive to potential new gamers of today. Some aspects are out of fashion (like mullet haircuts) and other aspects are probably done more easily/cheaply, or just better, by other technologies.

 

[loverdrive]

It's a fascinating theory that, for example, AD&D and B/X are completely different hobbies than 5e.

I doubt you will find much purchase with any theory that requires such limited definitions. IMO.

Maybe not completely different, depending on how close we look. It's like a fractal -- the closer we zoom, the more distinction we see.

Can we consider gaming a hobby? Sure. Let's look closer.
Can we consider tabletop games a hobby, separate from video games or (I don't know the word) games like football and basketball? Sure. Let's look closer.
Can we consider TTRPGs a hobby, separate from wargames, board games, CCGs and gambling? Sure. Let's look closer.
Can we consider OSR a hobby, separate from New School and Mid School? Sure. Let's...

Yeah, let's stop. I don't really want to type more of the same naughty word.

The huge glaring flaw in your argument is the assumption that these are all mutually exclusive. They aren't. Guess what? Way back in 1981 the "players actively worked together to create a cool and engaging story", and even us grogs now playing 5e play it as the GM being an impartial judge and we use player skill to resolve many challenges.

D&D is D&D. Playing B/X or 5e is all still the same hobby. It's literally the same name of the same type of game. Your flawed analogies of trying to compare collecting firearms with hot wheels is noted.

I didn't say they are mutually exclusive. I did say that they are very different.

If you are running 5E as an impartial judge, you're engaging in a Old School gaming. If you are running B/X with the focus on actively creating a story (and not just getting one from series of rolls), by invoking genre tropes and taking into account story structure (three act structure, five act structure, whatever else you've picked), then, well, you ain't doing it in Old School way.

D&D is D&D.

Yeah, and hip-hop is hip-hop. But no one would argue that cloud rap is very different from old skool. Though, I'd definitely say that "old" and "new" are very stupid terms -- a band that was calling themselves "New School of Russian hip-hop" is now considered aggressively old-school

And, well, I don't know naughty word about collecting hot wheels or matchboxes... Oh. Damn. Ok. I thought you were comparing matchboxes (like, boxes of matches? I guess someone collects them) to hot wheels. Sorry, disregard that. The only brand of toy cars I know is hot wheels.

Though, continuing with the things I know, within firearms collecting there are very separate categories. Collecting Wild West guns is very different from collecting WWII guns, which is very different from collecting AKs (no one asked, but this is what I do).

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

Some aspects are out of fashion (like mullet haircuts)

O RLY?

Like old school, the mullet will never die. It will just keep showing up to work in the front, and playing D&D all night in the back!

 

[Retreater]

I think it is less about "room" and more about cultural relevance. I think many of the things that made the "old school" games attractive back in the 80s are not particularly attractive to potential new gamers of today. Some aspects are out of fashion (like mullet haircuts) and other aspects are probably done more easily/cheaply, or just better, by other technologies.

The younger people I know assure me mullets are coming back. Unfortunately.
But yes, I agree those looking for dungeon hackfests/loot quests are probably better served by computer games. And maybe TTRPGs in general are supplanted by video games, if we're honest.
I have described it like the digital streaming vs vinyl debate. Digitally streaming music on a service like Spotify is in many ways superior and more sensible than collecting albums. But there is something special to many people about owning things physically.

 

[Mannahnin]

The OSR and its adjacent outgrowths are comparably accessible and appealing to new younger gamers as 5E is. 5E has wider reach and support infrastructure. OSR style games have simpler mechanics and less barrier to entry inherent in the game itself.

I'm happy that the venues I've played OSR games in online over the past year have all been deliberately inclusive and welcoming.