D&D 5E Do you use the Success w/ Complication Module in the DMG or Fail Forward in the Basic PDF

[Swarmkeeper]

Count me in the camp that uses "progress combined with a setback" but not the "success at a cost" rules.

1) Why do you use it if you do or why do you not use it if you do not?

While only calling for ability checks when there is a chance of success or failure AND a meaningful consequence to failure, sometimes the situation calls for allowing the PCs to make progress but with a setback. Success at a cost is too fiddly - I like the simplicity of pass/fail and I can assign the appropriate level of consequence on the back end (which I will typically tell the player before the roll anyway).

2) Is this the first game you've used this GMing technique or did you use it in the past in other games (and when did you first use it)?

Yes. I played 1e then took a couple decade hiatus from RPGs.

3) If you use SWC or FF, do you use it on every instance of action resolution or only certain instances of action resolution?

Certain instances.

4) If you only use SWC or FF on certain instances of action resolution, what principles/reasoning underwrite your decision to use it here, but not use it there.

The bottleneck example provided by @overgeeked is a good one. Even on a failure, let the players proceed through the check to advance the story but with a setback of some sort that challenges them.

 

[loverdrive]

Uhm... Kinda? (didn't vote, don't know what to pick) I just use a simple and straightforward table.

10-: You fail (or succeed in a way you wish you didn't) and there's a complication.
11-17: You do it, but there's a complication.
18+: You do it.
Nat 20. You do it and enjoy some additional benefits.

1) Why do you use it if you do or why do you not use it if you do not?

Because I hate when nothing happens after a roll. I don't care whether it's a success or not, there should be a price. A price paid in blood.

2) Is this the first game you've used this GMing technique or did you use it in the past in other games (and when did you first use it)?

I have a decade of running Apocalypse and her numerous offspring under my belt, so, no, not the first game.

3) If you use SWC or FF, do you use it on every instance of action resolution or only certain instances of action resolution?

I always use it. I think that using it sometimes kinda defeats the purpose and just makes things unreliable, which is the opposite of what I want.

 

[Charlaquin]

Uhm... Kinda? (didn't vote, don't know what to pick) I just use a simple and straightforward table.

10-: You fail (or succeed in a way you wish you didn't) and there's a complication.
11-17: You do it, but there's a complication.
18+: You do it.
Nat 20. You do it and enjoy some additional benefits.


Because I hate when nothing happens after a roll. I don't care whether it's a success or not, there should be a price. A price paid in blood.


I have a decade of running Apocalypse and her numerous offspring under my belt, so, no, not the first game.


I always use it. I think that using it sometimes kinda defeats the purpose and just makes things unreliable, which is the opposite of what I want.

I’ve seen you talk about this a bit before, and I think it’s definitely an interesting approach. If you don’t mind delving into it further, I have a few questions about this for you specifically - I’d be quite interested in your perspective as someone who clearly has a preference for the PbtA “play to find out what happens” style but still opts to play D&D at least some of the time. If you don’t feel like getting into it though, I understand (and I also don’t want to thread jack, so I’m cool with taking it to PMs or another thread if you or @Manbearcat prefer). I’ll leave them here, and if you feel like answering feel free, if not, that’s cool, and if you or @Manbearcat would rather we take the discussion elsewhere, just let me know.

1. As alluded to in my preamble. It seems like you prefer the PbtA style, but you still play D&D, tweaking it to better suit that style, and I’m curious as to why? Is there something about D&D that you feel something like Dungeon World is lacking, and if so, what? Or is it a simple matter of it being easier to find players for D&D?

2. How did you arrive at these numbers?

3. Are these numbers universal, or contextual? That is to say, can the difficulty of the task affect the odds of getting a result in each of these four categories, or only the character’s stats? And can you elaborate on why you prefer one way or the other?

4. Who decides when a roll is called for in your games? Is the DM the only one who can call for a roll, or can players initiate them, and if so, under what contexts?

5. Can the result of a roll change the fiction in your games? For example, if a PC tries to recall lore (and it’s appropriate for that action to be resolved with a dice roll), do you invent something new about the subject to suit the results of the roll, as in a Spout Lore move in Dungeon World, or is the fiction predetermined and fixed, and the roll determines what information the PC gets access to?

Bonus question: would you be so kind as to give me an example of the possible results in each of these four categories for a check to recall lore about a monster? If you need a specific context we can say a troll, since trolls and their famous weakness to fire and acid is an easy go-to in these discussions, but if you have an example you feel is more appropos, feel free to use it.

 

[Manbearcat]

Hey @Quickleaf !

@Charlaquin , appreciate the courtesy. You and @loverdrive can chat away here. I’m sure folks looking into this thread would be interested in your conversation.

 

[loverdrive]

1. As alluded to in my preamble. It seems like you prefer the PbtA style, but you still play D&D, tweaking it to better suit that style, and I’m curious as to why? Is there something about D&D that you feel something like Dungeon World is lacking, and if so, what? Or is it a simple matter of it being easier to find players for D&D?

While I love Dungeon World to no end, the only game that does D&D fantasy is, well, D&D.

Dungeon World, while cosplaying D&D, at least in my hands, generates a vastly different experience. The characters advance much more "horizontally" and acquire new ways of dealing with challenges, but their power level generally stays the same -- lvl 1 characters can take on a dragon, it's gonna be a hard battle and they will pay a great price. Lvl 10 characters can take on a dragon, and it's still going to be a hard battle and still will pay a great price. Playing DW is like watching and writing a fantasy TV show at the same time.

D&D, on the other hand, is much more "gamey". It feels like a tabletop Diablo, and it's something I honestly enjoy from time to time. The characters grow from being scared of goblins to wrestling with dragons over the span of the game, ridiculous things like grabbing a book so it can't be burned by a fireball actually work and when bossfight starts I draw a giant HP bar on screen. We also measure damage numbers in hundreds at tier 1, thousands at tier 2, and tens of thousands at tier 3+, lol. Because "I HIT HIM WITH MY SWORD FOR TWENTY THOUSAND DAMAGE!" is much cooler than "uh, yeah, 20 damage".

Overall, if my Dungeon World villain is "played by Christopher Lee", then my D&D villain is "voiced by Troy Baker".

So out-of-combat scenes are closer to QTEs with exploding helicopters and naughty word than they are to, well, scenes in a big-budget fantasy TV show. And I want my QTEs cool and bombastic, with exploding helicopters and falling buildings.

2. How did you arrive at these numbers?

I ran some formulas through anydice to achieve similar numbers to PbtA, so rolling d20-1 is roughly equal to 2d6+0, and d20+10 is roughly equal to 2d6+3.

3. Are these numbers universal, or contextual? That is to say, can the difficulty of the task affect the odds of getting a result in each of these four categories, or only the character’s stats? And can you elaborate on why you prefer one way or the other?

If there's something to make a task particularly difficult, I use adv/disadv. Other than that, these numbers are static -- I don't want to be bothered with setting DCs and I want the players to know the odds.

4. Who decides when a roll is called for in your games? Is the DM the only one who can call for a roll, or can players imitate them, and if so, under what contexts?

Situations that require a roll are obvious most of the time, and if not -- well, if a player is eager to roll some dice, I'm all in for it. And I let the players to pick what skill and ability they want to use. "I'm going to Persuade him with my keen Intelligence, carefully choosing my words to explain to him how bad the situation is."

5. Can the result of a roll change the fiction in your games? For example, if a PC tries to recall lore (and it’s appropriate for that action to be resolved with a dice roll), do you invent something new about the subject to suit the results of the roll, as in a Spout Lore move in Dungeon World, or is the fiction predetermined and fixed, and the roll determines what information the PC gets access to?

Yes, they can.

Bonus question: would you be so kind as to give me an example of the possible results in each of these four categories for a check to recall lore about a monster? If you need a specific context we can say a troll, since trolls and their famous weakness to fire and acid is an easy go-to in these discussions, but if you have an example you feel is more appropos, feel free to use it.

Wizzy the Wizard: I pull out my books about Nature, and I want to look through them for information about trolls. Damn. 3!
Me: You see, trolls being weak to fire is actually nothing more than an urban myth. No data about acid, though.

Wizzy the Wizard: I pull out my books about Nature, and I want to look through them for information about trolls. Ughh, almost. 16!
Me: Trolls are weak to fire and acid, combined. And you have to alternate between the damage types -- first fire, then acid, then fire again. Screw it up and they'll get healed instead.

Wizzy the Wizard: I pull out my books about Nature, and I want to look through them for information about trolls. Ok, works fine. 19.
Me: Trolls are weak to fire and acid, but you know that already. Also, their hearts are actually pretty valueable, right now market price is floating near 400 gp a piece.


Wizzy the Wizard: I pull out my books about Nature, and I want to look through them for information about trolls. Yeah, baby! Natural 20!
Me: Here's their stat block. Remove any one thing from it.

 

[ccs]

In general I do not.
Success = success, failure = failure, the end.

In specific it's dependent upon what exactly is going on in the story/game at that time.
This is not discussed with the players so as to not set up any expectations on their end. They can keep right on expecting failure to always mean failure & be pleasantly surprised on occasion.

 

[Charlaquin]

While I love Dungeon World to no end, the only game that does D&D fantasy is, well, D&D.

Dungeon World, while cosplaying D&D, at least in my hands, generates a vastly different experience. The characters advance much more "horizontally" and acquire new ways of dealing with challenges, but their power level generally stays the same -- lvl 1 characters can take on a dragon, it's gonna be a hard battle and they will pay a great price. Lvl 10 characters can take on a dragon, and it's still going to be a hard battle and still will pay a great price. Playing DW is like watching and writing a fantasy TV show at the same time.

D&D, on the other hand, is much more "gamey". It feels like a tabletop Diablo, and it's something I honestly enjoy from time to time. The characters grow from being scared of goblins to wrestling with dragons over the span of the game, ridiculous things like grabbing a book so it can't be burned by a fireball actually work and when bossfight starts I draw a giant HP bar on screen. We also measure damage numbers in hundreds at tier 1, thousands at tier 2, and tens of thousands at tier 3+, lol. Because "I HIT HIM WITH MY SWORD FOR TWENTY THOUSAND DAMAGE!" is much cooler than "uh, yeah, 20 damage".

Overall, if my Dungeon World villain is "played by Christopher Lee", then my D&D villain is "voiced by Troy Baker".

So out-of-combat scenes are closer to QTEs with exploding helicopters and naughty word than they are to, well, scenes in a big-budget fantasy TV show. And I want my QTEs cool and bombastic, with exploding helicopters and falling buildings.


I ran some formulas through anydice to achieve similar numbers to PbtA, so rolling d20-1 is roughly equal to 2d6+0, and d20+10 is roughly equal to 2d6+3.


If there's something to make a task particularly difficult, I use adv/disadv. Other than that, these numbers are static -- I don't want to be bothered with setting DCs and I want the players to know the odds.


Situations that require a roll are obvious most of the time, and if not -- well, if a player is eager to roll some dice, I'm all in for it. And I let the players to pick what skill and ability they want to use. "I'm going to Persuade him with my keen Intelligence, carefully choosing my words to explain to him how bad the situation is."


Yes, they can.


Wizzy the Wizard: I pull out my books about Nature, and I want to look through them for information about trolls. Damn. 3!
Me: You see, trolls being weak to fire is actually nothing more than an urban myth. No data about acid, though.

Wizzy the Wizard: I pull out my books about Nature, and I want to look through them for information about trolls. Ughh, almost. 16!
Me: Trolls are weak to fire and acid, combined. And you have to alternate between the damage types -- first fire, then acid, then fire again. Screw it up and they'll get healed instead.

Wizzy the Wizard: I pull out my books about Nature, and I want to look through them for information about trolls. Ok, works fine. 19.
Me: Trolls are weak to fire and acid, but you know that already. Also, their hearts are actually pretty valueable, right now market price is floating near 400 gp a piece.


Wizzy the Wizard: I pull out my books about Nature, and I want to look through them for information about trolls. Yeah, baby! Natural 20!
Me: Here's their stat block. Remove any one thing from it.

Awesome, thank you very much for answering!

 

[cmad1977]

I use all these tools and others depending upon the event/context.

I also don’t.

 

[dave2008]

I chose yes, but in reality I use them slightly differently than the recommendations in the DMG. I typical say a hard fail is if you fail by 5 or more. So failing by 1-4 allows a partial success + complication or additional checks to succeed (usually with disadvantage now). Similarly, succeeding by 5 or more usually provides extra benefits.

 

[Manbearcat]

Here is a comment and some follow-up questions:

COMMENT

I see a form of action resolution (eg Fail Forward) sometimes called a “tool”.

QUESTIONS

1) Whose “tool” is it? The GMs?

2) If it’s the GMs to invoke (or not) at their discretion, what are the principles they use to inform their discretion?

3) Is the player made aware of when the “tool” comes “online” in an instance of action resolution? If they aren’t explicitly aware, is it inferable from first principles?

4) What say does the player have in this - when it comes online (if any)?