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D&D 5E D&D compared to Bespoke Genre TTRPGs

CoC doesn't actually distinguish. Anything traumatic is potentially worth some SAN loss. That being said, the losses for fairly mundane 'icky' stuff are not incredibly severe. A normal human with a sound mind (lets call that 50 SAN) would, for example, when unexpectedly encountering a mutilated dead body make a SAN check, at say 0/1d6 or something like that, maybe even less if the situation is not too trying. That means 0 SAN loss on a success (IE rolling under your current SAN), and 1d6 points if you fail. A loss of some amount, I'd have to go back and check the rules, but it is something like 10% can induce temporary insanity. Temporary insanity is somewhat debilitating and can require treatment (counseling, institutionalization, medication) but the character recovers after some down time.

Honestly, its a crude model of ACTUAL mental trauma, but no worse than hit points is a model of physical trauma. If you have been acquainted with service people who have experienced combat, etc. you might recognize some truth to the idea that bad stuff takes a mental toll, and ENOUGH bad stuff can break people. I'm not so sure that the '0 SAN you are gone forever' rule is very realistic, nor that the actual EFFECTS of mental trauma in CoC are super accurate, but it still captures some of the reality of the thing in a highly gamist fashion that is playable, follows genre logic, and isn't so far out there that it cannot be swallowed for purposes of play. Obviously you could probably include additional realism in the model, but I'm not sure how that would make it a better game.

As for any other Mythos games, I cannot really say, as I haven't played them. Perhaps they have improved on this. All/most of them AFAIK do have some sort of mechanic that models the mental effects of the Mythos.

The funny thing is this is basically the chassis for the sanity rules in the DMG... So by the logic in this thread I guess CoC doesn't have rules for horror either or they are garbage. I wonder what that says about it being considered the premiere horror game and this is from someone who prefers Unknown Armies and Vaesen to CoC for horror. Nevertheless I figure it must be doing something right.
 

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I was there as a player, it was a delve into a mad wizard's tower, where he tried to summon otherworldly horrors.

Each time an eldrich horror appeared, the GM called for a sanity save. On a fail, a player rolled on madness table. I suspect the severity was tied to "powerfullness" of an eldrich horror, but I don't know that for sure.

The GM did a very cool job with descriptions and tension of not knowing what's lurking beyond reality and never being sure that the aberration we killed will stay dead, but madness rules didn't add anything to it, and one instance, where a fighter rolled naughty word-eating on a short-term table actively detracted from, well, horror.
Just an FYI, it is not required to roll on the madness table on a failed sanity check. That is an option though. If the DM was going to use that option they would ideally tailor the list of madness to something that would add to the horror.

However, I generally agree with you that Madness doesn't add to the horror. That is why we didn't like the Sanity mechanic when we played CoC and we didn't use in our 5e Cthulhu horror game.
 

Yeah I'm extremely familiar with Dungeon World but I think I'm being dim. What/where are the knobs? It seems to me that DW would be pretty bad at supporting LotR, for example, because the classes/monsters/moves don't align at all well with that vibe, whereas Conan would be absolutely fine, as would a Shrek-esque fairy tale (which is perilously close to D&D anyway - the first D&D adventure I wrote was based on an episode of The Gummi Bears...). Warhammer would be fine as long as you didn't want it to be old-skool WHFRP-style (i.e. "You are a gravedigger, you own rags and a shovel, you die in the first combat you get into"), and the characters were the equivalent to inquisitors, knights, low-end wizards, assorted elfs and so on.
Okay, the knobs.

First, the fantastic world itself -- it can range from a highly magical world with floating cities, bound and shackled dragons and magical universities to a world where the only "real", effective magic is wielded by creepy witches who eat babies, and even the party wizard barely understands the fire she plays with.

Then, magic -- just by making different moves, when a wizard fails to cast a spell we can create a world, where magic is bad juju or a world where it's a divine gift from above or anything in between. If rolling a 6- on Cast a Spell is "your magic missile has missed, the orc you tried to stop reaches you and slashes your flesh with his jagged blade! What ya gonna do?" is different from "the air grows cold, you hear voices in your head and a moment later, a horrific daemon appears, ripping through the fabric of reality that you weakened by your magic. What ya gonna do?".

Then, damage -- by inflicting (or not inflicting) different, khm, effects, when PCs suffer damage we can go from visceral and gritty to over the top superheroic very easily. "Ork slashes at you with his jagged blade, and you barely manage to evade his blow! Take 8 damage and you're off balance. What ya gonna do?" is very different from "Ork slashes at you with his jagged blade, leaving a nasty cut in your arm. It hurts like hell and you can barely hold your sword in it, and I tell you what, at that rate, you barely have a minute before you'll pass out from blood loss. What ya gonna do?".

It seems to me that DW would be pretty bad at supporting LotR, for example, because the classes/monsters/moves don't align at all well with that vibe
Maybe I'm not familiar with LotR enough, but I don't see what would interfere with it in DW... You even have Sauron and his mount Doom to cospay Death and her Black Citadel of Death.

You probably wouldn't be able to emulate all the cast of the book, but I don't see any problem with running a game, where brave heroes travel a long and perilous way to stop an evil overlord in a world, where magic is slowly fading, being replaced by brutish orc industrialism and all the refined and civilized mythical creatures are leaving for the West.

J.R. Tolkien's "Long Defeat" is even one of the principles on GM's sheet!

But overall I don't think that offering options is a prerequisite for a well-designed system. I think that when a well-designed system gives you a wiggle room, it's going to work and work as intended regardless of what you pick.
 
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I think an awful lot of "actually designed" RPGs (which I agree D&D kind of isn't - 4E was the closest it got) don't really offer options. They definitely don't leave you stranded, but they tend to be narrower and more directed.

Are we ignoring generic systems like Hero and GURPS (leaving aside how much you like or how good you think the options there are for the moment)? Because they certainly have plenty of them, especially the latter.
 

The only CoC modules I've looked at recently - The Vanishing Conjurer and The Statute of the Sorcerer - are predicated on PC victories.

In my play experience of Cthulhu Dark, in our first game the PCs were able to crash the freighter with a shoggoth in its hull onto rocks, causing it to sink; they escaped on a tugboat (and some of the cultist NPCs escaped in a lifeboat). All of the PCs ended up with a 4 on their sanity die. In the second game one of the PCs went mad, but the replacement PC and the other PC were able to foil a plot involving the transportation to London of were-hyenas from East Africa and were-wolves from Central Europe.

Some of HPL's stories are "no win" in the sense that the protagonist's victory is keeping the secret rather than stopping anything bad from happening. But that isn't true of all of them, and doesn't have to be the case in Coc-type RPGing.
I don't even think 'no win' is really a trope in Mythos. The Dunwich Horror for instance is certainly a 'win' for the protagonists. The Shadow Over Innsmouth ends with the government blowing up 'certain buildings' in the town, and I guess the protagonist gets what he wants, though you can slice that a few different ways. At the Mountains of Madness falls more in the "keep the secret" vein, the main characters cannot be said to have really 'lost'. Call of Cthulhu itself seems to be a sort of victory for the narrator. Granted, many other stories, like say The Whisperer in Darkness don't seem to end so well for the narrator, lol. A typical ending is on the lines of "I know too much now, there are things on my trail!" For PCs that isn't exactly a BAD ending, you got story hooks!

Laundry Files stories (the material which Delta Green specifically addresses) are pretty much, by definition, of the latter type. You're a member of an organization trying to stave off 'Case Nightmare Green' essentially, which is the inevitable and unstoppable result of "When the Stars are Right", but there is at least hope that life can go on for maybe some future generations. Maybe even if modern civilization is ultimately doomed, some of humanity might survive (though there is that one non-canonical online story where shoggoths eat the whole world). Laundry Files is a bit more grimdark than HPL's Mythos though. In his imagining of it, humanity is destined to fade IN DEEP TIME, but that really is not so much different from what most archeologists and biologists today would suggest is likely. He just put a bit more of an outre spin on it, and the concept was certainly a lot less mainstream in his time. I think Charles Stross developed his interpretation mainly because of that. Modern audiences aren't exactly appalled by the idea that humanity will probably not be around in 5 or 10 million years. In the 1930's the very idea of Deep Time was rather 'out there', most people probably still thought Biblical time scales were all there was to it.
 

Maybe I'm not familiar with LotR enough, but I don't see what would interfere with it in DW... You even have Sauron and his mount Doom to cospay Death and her Black Citadel of Death.
The issue would largely be that DW characters are, regardless of how you use the moves etc., mechanical badasses. And the moves reflect that, including the default moves, which are highly focused on a take on D&D, particularly one leaning towards as sort of badassified take on pre-3E editions. The moves in DW are designed to funnel you towards a specific mode of play, which is a great deal more "power fantasy" than LotR is typically understood as - it's like everyone is Legolas and Gimli and Aragorn - and the movie versions at that.

D&D isn't great for LotR-type stuff either, and indeed a lot of fantasy RPGs aren't, which is why there are always LotR-specific or LotR-emulating RPGs kicking around, which tend to have a very different fundamental tone to them.
Are we ignoring generic systems like Hero and GURPS (leaving aside how much you like or how good you think the options there are for the moment)? Because they certainly have plenty of them, especially the latter.
We are somewhat unfairly not including them in the "actually designed" category, even though you, from direct experience, know HERO/Champions is. I mean, why don't I exclude HERO, because I'm only familiar with it in the context of emulating superhero stuff. However, I have a lot more experience with GURPS (albeit only up into the early '00s).

With GURPS, it feels like there are two things that differentiate it from "actually designed" systems:

1) The initial foundation of the game is from a very naive era of design, and some of the early design decisions in the game, appear to be naive, or perhaps the product of incompetent design which appears to be naive. The end result is the same and indistinguishable. So GURPS is supposedly generic, but some elements of it appear to be pretty specific (and naive) in much the way D&D is. Later editions didn't seem to want to change this (perhaps they have now, of course), which leads me to:

2) The "Prime Directive" of GURPS appears to be "Maintain compatibility and where applicable continuity with GURPS, even at the cost of being genre-appropriate".

This is evident for example with GURPS Fantasy. GURPS Fantasy was a mess (using past tense, because maybe they fixed it). It did not provide tools to emulate the fantasy genre at all, nor the various subgenres within fantasy. It talked a great game - describing a lot of that stuff and doing so well ("talking a good game" is basically why I have so many GURPS books, because they tend to be useful well beyond the rules, which are often lacklustre). But the rules it offered don't actually support the genres it discussed. For example, it had an extremely specific approach to magic - just as specific as D&D - despite a lot of "talking a good game" around it - and then it had a lot more on magic, but which all pretty much builds on that incredibly specific take on magic. And the reason it took that approach wasn't that it was a well-reasoned take on magic which fits with the fantasy genre, because it didn't (and I see no period in history when that would have been the case). It's because it's the approach GURPS Fantasy has always taken.

And if you look at the genres, there's no mechanical support for most of them beyond attempting to model various monsters etc. in GURPS terms. Like, nothing is going to push you towards classic tropes of specific subtypes of fantasy, and the game will still always play out like GURPS - replete pretty highly deadly combat, over in seconds, which is quite skill-reliant. Occasionally you see an optional rule to simulate one small element of a genre, but even that is extremely rare, even within genre-specific books.

Let's not even start on GURPS Supers. It certainly shows that, comparatively, HERO was extremely committed to genre emulation.

TLDR: GURPS talks great about genres and themes and so on, and provides a ton of material in a literary sense, but when it comes to mechanics, tradition/continuity (i.e. how earlier GURPS versions approached something, no matter how naive they were) and interoperability between GURPS material will always trump other factors.

EDIT - Particularly relevant to this thread, AFAIK GURPS has absolutely no way to approach heist as a genre that D&D doesn't. It arguably has better rules for them on a basic level (3d6 resolution, narrower range of TNs, etc.), but you'd have to run it as plan-execute, and you'd have to pretty elaborately model the heist building and guards and so on, which would be a kind of anti-support almost (worse than D&D because more work would need to go into it). This is indicative of the general attitude to genre in GURPS. Provide rules on top of the GURPS rules, but which don't fundamentally change assumptions or alter approaches. Generally GURPS leans extremely hard into simulationism (and away from gamist or narrativist approaches), and not of genres, but of this sort of unspoken "the way the world works", which is basically GURPS-world. If characters in a setting are all tough, GURPS will say "make everyone buy 10 levels of the Tough Guy advantage" (fictional example), rather than changing the damage rules, which will still be basically murderous.

SECOND EDIT - Total aside, but do you have any insight into why Champions went for this pretty complex/fiddly "squad combat" motif in its combat design (particularly stuff like segments)? I'm guessing it was before your time and my presumption would be that it came out of familiarity with various wargame-ish concepts, and as such I would characterise that as "naive" design, but perhaps the actual thing was that they wanted a highly tactical superhero game, not one that emulated the genre and its tropes and so on.
 
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The one often deployed when one realizes they're out of their depth in the conversation and wants to save face.

Mod Note:
A bit late, as we were only notified by it now, but...

This is a bit of toxic, condescending horsehockey that leads to a toxic atmosphere. I don't suspect you'll like the results should you continue to talk to people like this, in this thread or any others.
 

As I said, it depends on the system.

In 4e there is nothing to suggest that the INT score is an important consideration in how to roleplay one's PC. The PHB (p 17) says the following about INT:

Classic Traveller is (in my view) not like that. Stats don't tend to feed into resolution, at least not in any straightforward way. They do feed into PC lifepaths, and are affected by those too. INT can drop due to age, just like physical stats can. I didn't need to say anything to my players for them to infer that INT establishes part of the parameters for deciding what actions to declare for one's PC, and more generally for deciding how to portray the character.

Likewise when I am playing NPCs, I will sometimes mention their INT to the players as part of the context for a decision I make as to what the NPC does. Less bright NPCs will make different sorts of decisions from cunning ones. (Again, 4e handles this in completely different ways: what makes an ogre act brutishly in 4e is not the GM playing its INT score, but the GM playing its attack abilities.)
Traveller doesn't mention the RP significance of Ability Scores, AFAIK, which seems to be what you are saying. Yet you state that players simply 'infer' their use in this fashion. I would posit that the same is true in 4e, where there is ALSO a very consistent mechanical effect. I expect the two to reinforce one another. This is what I've always seen in practice with my groups. That is, a player with an 8 INT fighter didn't RP the character as being intellectual or making plans which relied on a lot of recall of facts or memorization. I don't recall ever really having to say to a player "do you think your character would be doing that?" they just seem to understand. I always found this to be a good point of the D&D (and other similar, like Traveller) attribute designs, they are pretty obvious to a great extent and easy to RP. I mean, low INT/high WIS or vice versa can get a bit hair-splitting I guess at times, but most people seem to have a pretty good model of not-intellectual-but-savvy or intelligent-but-an-idiot.
 

I already addressed this and you seem intent on ignoring the change that using Sanity rules brings (which addressed your issue as stated about ability scores and advantages vs. madness). If you still don't comprehend that we can end the discussion because it won't go anywhere.
Why are you pretending that it was only the WIS/CHA saving throws that I spoke about re: the madness rules. I spent a sentence of that post on that, the majority being on how bad the Madness rules are otherwise. I mean, a number of other posters have referenced and/or reiterated those issues, but you keep insisting that I've erred because Sanity "fixes" the save problem, which was one of many issues. You've even managed to completely ignore the problems I pointed out with Sanity, namely that it creates MAD problems and is hard to know how to prioritize SAN as a stat because it's pretty critical is checks are common, but a waste if they are not.

At this point, given how you keep mentioning me and Sanity, you're either rather confused about tge discission -- having missed my responses to your earlier queries -- or you are intentionally trying to distort the record.
 

Why are you pretending that it was only the WIS/CHA saving throws that I spoke about re: the madness rules. I spent a sentence of that post on that, the majority being on how bad the Madness rules are otherwise. I mean, a number of other posters have referenced and/or reiterated those issues, but you keep insisting that I've erred because Sanity "fixes" the save problem, which was one of many issues. You've even managed to completely ignore the problems I pointed out with Sanity, namely that it creates MAD problems and is hard to know how to prioritize SAN as a stat because it's pretty critical is checks are common, but a waste if they are not.

At this point, given how you keep mentioning me and Sanity, you're either rather confused about tge discission -- having missed my responses to your earlier queries -- or you are intentionally trying to distort the record.

I think I did miss your other issues. I honestly your main issue was with Sanity... so let's try this again. What are the issues you have with madness?
 

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