Real Religion in Adventure Design

[Aldarc]

Sorry I don’t understand your point?

Apologies. They're historically dubious.

 

[Umbran]

...I find the Christian religion quite interesting (fascinating, actually). I really like all the Angles and "Host", and power structure hierarchy, major characters (Cain and Able, Adam and Eve, Noah, etc) and their stories....and I like to extrapolate them "up to modern times". As I mentioned, Supernatural (the TV series) is one of my all-time fave series. Absolutely LOVE the set up and "The Boys"! Such great stories to be told and examined from a more 'modern' perspective. IMNSHO, Supernatural managed to do just what you (the OP) is asking...use real-world religion, but not outright "offend a great many people".

If you enjoy fiction examining the major characters and extrapolating them to modern times, you might enjoy Lucifer (currently available on Netflix). It did, in fact, offend a great many people, as it has a rather more human and sympathetic take on why Lucifer is who he is.

 

[MGibster]

Sorry I don’t understand your point?

There's very little historical evidence outside of the Old Testament to support the events of Exodus. Our understanding of ancient Egypt is that workers constructing the pyramid were mostly free laborers, there's nothing in Egyptian records about a mass exodus of Jews or the death of a pharaoh, there's nothing in the records of surrounding people about such an event, we don't know of any pyramids constructed around 1300-1200 BCE which would have been the approximate time of Exodus, and there's scant archeological evidence supporting Exodus.

And this is where it gets hairy when it comes to presenting real religions in games and why many people here have expressed their reticence including it. You're just stepping out into a minefield and you never know what's going to blow up in your face. It makes sense to include real world religions in a modern game. It'd be odd if there were no Christians or Muslims in Vampire, Deadlands, or Shadowrun. But I'm not going to provide stats for the Holy Ghost and I'm going to especially step lightly around religions that are outside of my cultural wheelhouse.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

While I think it is theoretically possible to put together a table-specific game that is simultaneously textured enough and broad enough to actually use real-world religions and their content without it being bad....I find it very difficult to believe that people can do that with something published and not have it come across very badly. It's a simple problem of compactness. A game--be it a system, a module, an adventure path, whatever--necessarily must be smaller than the body of text and tradition it references. This means you are, of necessity, presenting only a narrow perspective on the topic.

To use one of the repeatedly-cited examples above, Arthurian myth (as far as its religious elements are concerned) is the product of a doubled re-imagining of Christianity in the Medieval Period, first by the people who lived then, second by more recent authors. It's going to be nearly impossible to not present a highly elided, simplified view of Christian theology, practice, and values, and the enormous set of cultural elements that went into making "courtly love" (which is critical to the Arthur/Guinevere/Lancelot tragedy arc) are almost certainly going to be either forgotten, unmentioned, or severely simplified. But as with any system purporting to transmit value-judgments across time and geography, the devil is (sometimes literally) in the details here, and the kinds of elision and simplification that would be required to communicate the core ideas efficiently are exactly the kinds of elision and simplification used to dismiss or deride religions in real life.

As for my own work, I draw heavily on medieval Islamic and Jewish religious philosophy in my home game, with some hints of pre-Islamic too, while expanding things outward. Most of my stuff, however, lies in inventing what I consider better explanations for D&D cosmic weirdness (like why Devils and Demons are always LE/CE, but somehow also sapient.) I'm actually very pleased with how the cosmology has come together, but I'm also glad I didn't have the IRL-religion sword of Damocles hanging over my head the whole time.

 

[TheSword]

Apologies. They're historically dubious.

Well most of ancient history is historically dubious. We have sources and some are more reliable than others. It doesn’t mean the time period isn’t evocative, and full of drama and insight. The idea isn’t to provide a definitive historical account but a place and time in keeping with a tradition.

Provided the writer is clear that the work is inspired by this religious tradition and not a statement of fact or authoraritive text. They make it clear it represents just one lens of history I see very little issue with it.

Dreamworks were perfectly reasonable in making their fictional interpretation of Exodus in Prince of Egypt. Their telling was a explicitly biased one and yet still and excellent film. There is space I think for a more nuanced portrayal of the time, particularly in the quasi fantasy/myth space occupied my many tv shows and films. A portrayal that can blend the miraculous, with the historical and a darn good story. There has been plenty of writing on the subject.

My suggested approach would be to present the work as clear fiction... then use sidebars to explain the historical references for the work and some of the disputes and disagreements. Perhaps offering suggestions for alternative approaches where these disputes warrant it.

That said for the OP I would also avoid fairly banal and somewhat tacky direct interactions with gods. The FR approach to god doesn’t really fit with real world religions. Pathfinder deals with it far more effectively... with typical manifestations, divinations, agents and traditions.

 

[TheSword]

There's very little historical evidence outside of the Old Testament to support the events of Exodus. Our understanding of ancient Egypt is that workers constructing the pyramid were mostly free laborers, there's nothing in Egyptian records about a mass exodus of Jews or the death of a pharaoh, there's nothing in the records of surrounding people about such an event, we don't know of any pyramids constructed around 1300-1200 BCE which would have been the approximate time of Exodus, and there's scant archeological evidence supporting Exodus.

And this is where it gets hairy when it comes to presenting real religions in games and why many people here have expressed their reticence including it. You're just stepping out into a minefield and you never know what's going to blow up in your face. It makes sense to include real world religions in a modern game. It'd be odd if there were no Christians or Muslims in Vampire, Deadlands, or Shadowrun. But I'm not going to provide stats for the Holy Ghost and I'm going to especially step lightly around religions that are outside of my cultural wheelhouse.

See my other post replying to Aldarc. I agree, I don’t want to have stats for the Holy Spirit.

However a discussion of a Holy Spirit, some of the religious traditions associated with it and some suggestions for how this might be represented in an RPG, sounds reasonable to me.

 

[pming]

Hiya!

If you enjoy fiction examining the major characters and extrapolating them to modern times, you might enjoy Lucifer (currently available on Netflix). It did, in fact, offend a great many people, as it has a rather more human and sympathetic take on why Lucifer is who he is.

Oh, yes! I loved Lucifer. Enjoyed the heck out of it (binge watched, of course! ). I haven't seen the last season though, because... Netflix. Until they remove "Cuties" from availability in EVERY country...I'm not going back. Too bad. I paid $15/month for a couple years for Netflix...had/have some great stuff on there.

Lucifer has some great characters. I really enjoy Mazikeen and Linda in particular. Uriel is my third fave, with Lucifer being a close fourth.

^_^

Paul L. Ming

 

[Asisreo]

• Pick your lens and make it explicit
• Stick to your lens as much as possible
• Admit that your lens is capable only of caricature

That would be for the best, though I would probably put sources of research into the adventure and be as explicit as possible for where these courses.

I would like for the experience to be equal parts fun as well as educational. I probably can't have it be as rigorous as a peer reviewed essay, but I'm hoping that as long as I avoid any sort of mocking tune, people would be more understanding of my intentions.

 

[Umbran]

Apologies. They're historically dubious.

Not to mention that, given current real-world events in that part of the world, however you position the confict is going to be seen as an allegory for today, and thus pretty insensitive.

 

[TheSword]

Not to mention that, given current real-world events in that part of the world, however you position the confict is going to be seen as an allegory for today, and thus pretty insensitive.

Sure, but if peace in the Middle East was the pre-requisite for fiction involving Old Testament tradition we’d be waiting a long time.

It is possible to write about politically controversial subjects without being insensitive. Without me straying into the political here, I would think there are several reversals in the biblical tradition that would confound simple allegory with the current situation but that’s probably debate for another site.

That said, a lot of the legends of the time, the lions paw, the wisdom of Solomon, David & Goliath are not particularly controversial or relatable to any particular individual. Or more likely relatable to every faction. They’re just good stories.

Also let’s not get started on the fact that every one of Moses’ plagues are spells in the PHB.

Even if all that wasn’t the case, an independent publisher isn’t required to please everyone to justify sharing their work. if it’s good enough quality and of interest to enough people. Both of which would be a matter for posterity.